I need some Answers.

[Mark_Everson]

TK:

The factbook link is Great. I have an old paper copy around here somewhere, but it's like ten years out of date.

All:

I'd like to reinforce what Kull said... We simply can't model every type of disaster. IMO these Must be Major occurrences, or the player will yawn and dismiss the message with irritation. The threshold I'd like to set is that a disaster must affect the entire civ at a 1% or greater level to be considered. So a local disaster must Kill 1% of the population, or a broader one would need to, say, reduce economic output by 1% to even be mentioned.

Clearly Historically the most important are diseases, especially epidemics. After that probably famine.

I think carefully measuring all potential natural disasters by a yardstick such as this will save a lot of effort and discussion time.

[alms66]

Kull & Mark,
You guys are absolutely right, so I'll drop the tornados no prob., but the thing about the forest fires, if we use the limited resources, which last time I checked was still undecided, I'd like to have the fires to deplete some of that wood. What do you think? If you still don't want it in there I really don't mind dropping it, it would just be nice to have limited resorces, so I wanted to include some disasters that could deplete them.
So that would mean we are down to earthquakes, volcanos, hurricanes, floods and droughts(which would procuce the famines).
Oh, and Kull, I don't know why you thought I might include the Giant Meteor, that, I agree, would be a very silly thing to include in a game.

[Paul Crocker]

I think that using fires purely as a disaster would be historically inaccurate. It has only been in recent years (this century for the most part) that FOREST fires have been much of a problem. That's mostly due to the encroachment of civilization on forests. Historically, most cultures have used fires to their advantage (Native Americans are a GREAT example of this). Fire was used to modify the land (either to thin forests or to create grazing land) extensively in many cultures. It is regaining its former prominence as a management tool by modern foresters (we used fire extensively in Michigan to prepare sites for replanting after clear cutting - it removes the competition/weed-trees that inhibit shade intolerant species like pine and aspen).

My point: while SOME fires are disasters (FE Yellowstone), they by no means inflict the economic damage that would fit Mark's criteria. It just doesn't justify comlicating the model with another event for the player to deal with IMHO. Just my $.02

[alms66]

You are absolutely right also Paul. I guess I should have been clearer that forest fires along with increased tornadoes, hurricanes, floods and droughts would have been a side effect of pollution/Global Warming. Though they would also occur naturally(except forest fires.)

[Lord God Jinnai]

I still think u should add run-on landslides. These can cover large areas (20 miles) so there effects could easily wipe out even the largest city. These would be caused only by earthquakes and volcanoes. Also i still think tsunami's should be on there since they can cause sever damage on many island nations. Also i haven't seen anything on huricanes which can cause damage from winds where it goes over as well as rain damage. The latter can also cause major flooding in areas that were'nt even hit so this could easily affect an entire civ.

Also on the meteor, even a small meteor, size of a basketball, can destroy a city so i agree we shouldn't have it.

On forest fires, many of the large ones (Yellowstone) are periodic. That happen i cycles of 100, 500, 1000 years or some other thing. Also flooding (Mississippi flood of 93) happens on similar scedules. In both these circumstances there is nothing that could be done to prevent it.

Finnaly we using the El Nino, La Nina in anyway?

Also i almost forgot, if we use global warming, are we also going to have a way for global cooling? IMO it just isn't right and also the latest scientific research says that massive global warming will result always if goes unckecked in an ice age. I'll explain more if u want but it might be a very long report.

[Glak]

I wouldn't include any global warming or cooling. It happens according to stuff that people don't really understand. It would also be completely out of the player's control (since pollution has no effect at all, that is just a myth) and would just sort of bother the player.

As for limited resources I think that is much harder to do in this type of game. Each genre is different. While RTS games must have very limited resources TBS games generally shouldn't. The problem is that without attrition you tend to have to go with a super weapon as the endgame force (think cards at 35+ in RISK, or high tech units in civ) which isn't good. Well it's not like any other TBS has solved this problem so people won't hold it against you.

[Kull]

TK: My comment on the meteor was in response to LGJ's request for more disaster ideas. I proposed it mostly tongue-in-cheek. Some smilies would have been helpful.

[Paul Crocker]

Here is a great reference for the effects of diseases throughout history:
http://ianrwww.unl.edu/ianr/entomol/...g/contents.htm

Check out the suggested readings if nothing else...I have some books that deal with disease (mostly in forestry), but I felt that they're much too technical and narrow in focus for the purpose of this discussion. Fe example, I don't think that we'll have to model the effects of bark beetles on western pines The info in this web site on the other hand has some relevant information. Good luck!

This site very briefly describes the significance of plant diseases - which shouldn't be overlooked in the model, since their effects can be devastating.
http://res.agr.ca/lond/pmrc/cps/disease.html
[This message has been edited by Paul Crocker (edited December 06, 1999).]

Finally, this site will give you an idea of the effects of both disease and governmental policies: The Irish Potato Famine
While most people have heard of the Famine, many underestimate the effects that the Famine had on Irish, British, and American history; the Famine spawned waves of immigration whose effects can still be seen today (150 years after the actual event!)
http://www.irishfaminefund.ie/famine.html
[This message has been edited by Paul Crocker (edited December 06, 1999).]