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  • Research system draft

    This is the first draft for the proposed research system. Feel free to comment on it.


    Contents:
    I. Overview
    II. How the Tech-tree is structured
    III. How RPs are calculated
    IV. How Project Cost is calculated
    V. How Research works
    VI. What Research does


    I. Overview

    I think most who enjoy civ-type games are of the opinion that gaining new technologies through research is one of the key elements in this kind of games. In Clash this should hold true. Although bits and pieces of the research system are taken from various other games of this type there are many innovations to be found here. The two most notable are the decisive affect of economical, governmental and cultural factors on research progress and the ‘free-form’ structure of the tech tree. These two areas also reflect those things we wanted to accomplish in research, that is, making a more detailed and realistic connection between the actual situation in the player´s state and what/how easily he could research something; and secondly give players more options and more freedom in what direction they wanted to take in research. Hopefully this goal has/will be achieved by us.
    Now, there is a lot of numbers and calculations found below (and much more to come), so many people may be alarmed that this system will be overly complicated. Just remember that most of the numbers found below will be hidden from the player, or at least something he doesn´t have to worry himself overly much over. But as the system we´re planning is a bit more detailed and ‘in touch’ with the game situation itself, it´s inevetable that the system is somehwhat more complex than found in other games. Using the system shouldn´t, however, pose any problems, as with everything else it´s up to the players how deep they want to go, even those who won´t study the system in detail can still use it, plus that the AI (probably in form of Advisors) should prove helpful in choosing the right course.
    Note that in the following text the terms ‘advances’ and ‘projects’ mean the same thing.

    II. How the Tech-tree is structured

    At the moment the tech-tree is divided into two parts, Technological Advances (TA), which cover all discoveries and inventions that relate to the science world, gadgets, industrial techniques, and so on and Social Advances (SA), which deal with all social and cultural changes as well as ideas concerning economical and military matters. The difference between the two categories should be obvious, and to some extent different rules apply to them, such as how advances from each group is implemented and how projects in each group are affected differently by the situation in the game. However, possibly we´ll get rid of the categories soon, but until/if that happens they´re included here. Each category has a number of fields, the excact number is undecided at the moment and will probably not be decided upon until the work on the advances (projects) themselves starts. As it stands now the TA category has six fields:
    1. Crafts, which deals with techniques and instruments used by the populace, such as clocks, compass and lenses, as well as simple production methods such as pottery and weaving.
    2. Industry, which deals with all kinds of resource gathering and managing, construction, architecture, irrigation, mining, and the like. Note that the distinction between the Crafts and Industry fields is not clear, this will be worked out as the work on advaces progresses.
    3. Communication, this field deals with all kinds of communication methods used by man, both direct (transportation) and indirect (communication). This field will thus include such diverse things as ship building, the combuistion engine, telegraph and the internet.
    4. Natural Science, I decided to split science into two parts, although this probably means many things will be in a grey area between them. But I think this should work. This field deals with biology, chemistry and the like as well as all Nature related advances, such as animal husbandry, breeding, medicine, DNA splicing and such.
    5. Hard Science, which mainly deals with physics, astronomy, electricity and the like. Note that in order to keep the number of advances in each field approx. the same we´ll probably need to move projects between fields, even if it strictly should belong to another field. This probably will be the case with this field, if we followed the historical rate of progress there would be too few projects at the start and too many at the end.
    6. Armaments, which deals with all kinds of methods and techniques used to improve one´s chances in war. Advances include weaponry, armor, fortifications, and other areas such as chemical warfare and electronic devices used in combat.
    At the moment only two fields exist in the SA, both of cover pretty broad subjects so possible they´ll be split later on depending on the number of projects in them.
    1. Civic, which deals with state-wide matters concerning economics, laws, administration and the like, as well as literacy and other educational things. Also, military thoughts and doctrines are found here.
    2. Culture, which deals with religious ideas, philosophy, all kinds of political thought, such as democracy and liberalism, as well as nationalism, environmentalism, humanism, humanitarianism and so on.
    The general progression is divided into Tech Levels (TL), which are 12 in total. The first level deals with primitive/antique advances, the last one with modern/near future projects. On each TL and for each field there are between 3 and 5 projects available for research. The number can fluctuate between fields and between TLs. Thus, if we assume 4 projects per field per TL on the avarege we have a total of 384 projects, which is considerable more than found in most games of this type, if I´m not mistaken. But as the progress along the tech tree is more liberal than in other games and that the ‘private’ research efforts of your citizens can count for much, players should never feel bogged down in their researching. That at least is the idea :-).


    III. How RPs are calculated

    We´ve been toying with few formulas in how excactly Research Points (RPs) are calcualted. The RPs are then of course distributed by the player among those projects he most want to discover. At the start of the game players must research one project from each field, thus, as the tech tree structure stands, they´ll always be researching 8 projects at a time. Later on, when they (the government that is) gain more control over what the people is researching they can fiddle around with this, such as research more than one project from a field at the same time and research more/less than the 8 projects required at start.
    The number of RPs a player accummulates depends on two things: how populous his state is and what social, cultural, economical and/or educational restraints his subjects are under, which determines how willing the subject is in making changes, how well equipped he is to do so from a financial and knowledge standpoint, and how easily he can get his ideas across and be socially accepted. The latter thing is much more important, so a state of 1 million people where individual freedom is high can easily outpace an autocratic state of 100 million people manyfold.
    Here is a list of the things that affect the RPs accumulated. We´ll use it as the basis for the exact formula for calculating this.
    - Population (maybe 1 RP per 100.000, this is randomized each turn (multiplied by a random number between 0,8 and 1,2) to give the number a little flux)
    - Economic standing of the pop. This is calculated at class basis, probably with the PCI as the basic measurement, but including such things as (un)employment, slavery, taxation, etc. [Multiply by 0,1 to 2,0]
    - Education of the pop. This is based on the education status of the state. [This will probably be represented by somekind of an Education Level (a floating point number (1.1, 1.2, etc), in which case we´d multiply the RP pool by the sqrt of the EL]
    - Cultural interest in research. This is also calcualted on class basis. Highly traditional societies, with rigid caste system and so on usually frown upon any changes. [Multiply (for each class, then add together) by 0,5 to 1,5]
    - Governmental view on research. The government (i.e. those classes which rule) can have very negative effects on research if it´s very centralized and powerful (only modern democratic governments are comfortable about research and the new ideas it generates, in the old days governments always feared (with right) that new ideas could usurp their power). [Multiply (again for each class) by 0,2 to 1,5]
    - Turn-based events. These can be of a varied nation and at the moment it´s difficult to say how big an impact they´ll have. These events will normally add (sometimes reduce) a set lump of RPs from the total pool the player has, instead of modifying the RP calculation as the other listings. [The number of RPs added/reduced should at most be ca. the total cost of an avarage advance, in most cases a lot less]


    IV. How Project Cost is calculated

    Each project has a basic cost, measured in RPs. This cost can be modified for various reasons up or down, making the actual cost in RPs even twice as cheap or expensive. The biggest factors in this are how the state elite looks upon the advance in question and how much the society feels it needs the advance. Thus, in a state run by the Military, all projects relating to military matters become cheaper, while those which the Military has little or no interest in or sees as a potential threat to it´s power become more expensive. But before we look more closely at what affects the cost, lets look a little closer on the projects themselves. Each project has a ‘tag’ which designates what kind of advance it is, some projects can have one or more tags. As of yet the excact types are pretty much undecided, but here is a suggestion list:
    - Science (Theory)
    - Politics
    - Army (Military)
    - Navy
    - Economics
    - Labor
    - Production
    - Education (Knowledge)
    - Spiritual
    I´m not sure this covers everything, but we´ll see. These tags serve two purposes. First, a class/culture is more interested in some things than another, the tag list is sorted in priority order depending on the class in power and the culture, those projects with tags from the top become cheaper and vice versa. Secondly, these tags are also used to determine how feasible the project is compared to the game situation, and how likely a project is to be forgotten or lost. For example all projects with the Navy tag become more expensive if the state has no (or limited) access to water. In order to determine this each tag is accociated with a specific game function/circumstances and increases/decreases of the cost based on this. F.e. projects with the Labor tag are influenced by the amount of unemployment, how widespread slavery in the workforce is and so on. Anyway, as you can see this idea isn´t fully developed yet, but you can see what we´re aiming at and the general picture of how we´ll do it.
    Here is a list of those things that can increase or decrease the cost of a project:
     A hidden modifying number which determines the exact basic cost at the moment the project is started [ranged between -25% and +25% (maybe more)]
     Demographic/cultural modifier (f.e. if the society is very traditionally bound this can severly restrict what advances the culture sees fit to research. [ranged between -50% to +50%]
     Threat/Need the government/class/people feel for the project. [Ranged between -50% to +50%, although rarily more/less than 25% unless in dire situations]
     Ideas from abroad, received through:
    a) spying/military conquests
    b) slaves/captives/migrants
    c) governmental exchange (players choice)
    d) trade (merchants)
    Each of this can give a bonus of ca. 25%, maybe more v. occasionally. Note also that migrants, when in the form of conquerers can also affect research/education level adversily if more primitve then the conquered.
     'Soft' prereqs, +10% if one TL below prereq TL, +25% if two TL below. If more than two TLs below the project can not be researched.
     For unresearced projects in TL below the current project. +5% per project and per TL.
    Notes: some of the listings need some explanation. The first listing is a modifier applied to the cost which can be either positive or negative. The idea with this is to keep players in the dark about how many RPs they need excactly to finish a research. They won´t see the modified number, only the cost as it is before this modifier is applied. Players only find out the excact cost when they´ve reached a breakthrough. This is the only hidden modifier.
    Most modifiers are only applied at the moment the project is started, but some, such as the ‘Threat/need’ and the ‘Ideas from abroad’ can affect the cost even after the project is started. The new cost is then displayed for the player, with the same hidden modifer being used again to recalculate the excact number needed.
    As you can see ‘Ideas from abroad’ can come in many guises. The workings of a) should be covered in the Intelligence section. Note that as it stands now players never steal/exchange advances as a whole, like in most other games, they only receive bonuses to their own research efforts of the projects(s) in question. The effects of b) would be recorded at the moment these elements get in touch/mingle with your society, the effects are based on their tech/education level vs. the player´s and how influential they are in the society (slaves, conquerers, etc.). The use of c) is up to players and works pretty much the same as tech exchanges in other games except that projects as a whole are never exchanged, players only exchange a cost bonus on some project(s). The ideas brought home by merchants from foreign lands are covered in d), what the bonus is is based on how much traffic (connection) is between the states, how advanced the idea is in relation to your own state and how much influence the merchants have in your society.
    Pre-requirements are explained in detail below, so the next last listing may seem a bit strange. Basically, a ‘soft’ prereq means it´s not a neccessity to have, but if you ain´t got it the cost is increased. Example: A project in the Craft Field needs a TL 3 from the Natural Science Field, but the player only has TL 1 there, he can still research the Craft project, but at 25% extra cost.
    As for the last listing concerning research progression more details can be found later on. Basically, players are not forced to research every project in each TL before advancing to the next, but researching a project from a TL when you still haven´t researched all projects on a lower TL will increase the cost of the project in question. So if you want to research a project on TL 5 while you still got one left from TL 3 and two from TL 4 would be 20% more expensive (5*2 + 5 + 5).
    It may not be apparant at what the differnce is between the RP calculations and the project cost calculations, at first sight the same modifiers seem to be used in both cases. The difference is that in the RP calculations the modifiers f.e. for culture and government are based on (applied to/from) each class or even each citizen, while for the project calculations the modifers are all based on the state/culture as a whole.


    V. How Research works

    The RP pool is distributed by the player among those projects he most wants to discover. At the start of the game players must research one project from each field, thus, as the tech tree structure stands, they´ll always be researching 8 projects at a time. Players are free to choose the amount of RPs in each project above or below the avarage of 12.5% Later on, when they (the government that is) gain more control over what the people is researching they can fiddle around with this, such as research more than one project from a field at the same time (by skipping researching from other field) and later research more/less than the 8 projects required at start (these changes come themselves through research).
    All states start at TL0 in all fields. So at the start players can only choose from projects on TL1 in each field. As stated above each TL will have between 3 and 5 projects, but players are not forced to research every one of them to gain access to the projects on the next TL he has other prereqs for. Usually it is enough to research half of the projects in a TL to gain access to the next level, sometimes this can be more (even all the projects), sometimes less (maybe just one). This will depend on how related the projects in the current field are to the projects in the next TL, but the norm is half.
    As to be expected most projects need a pre-requirment before it can be researched. There are two basic types of prereqs plus one ‘general’ one. The basic types we´ll call for now simply ‘hard’ and ‘soft’.
     Hard prereqs are a specific advance the player must have to be able to research projects with this as a prereq. We´ll try to keep the hard prereqs as few as possible in order to give players more freedom in their research, but some key discoveries still must be aquired by the players, such as literacy, gunpowder and printing.
     Soft prereqs are based on specific Tech-levels, it doesn´t matter which projects the player actually took in the TL, as long as he has gained access to the next level above. Also, even if the player hasn´t reached the TL in question he can still research the project at a slightly increased cost as long as he is only one or two TLs behind.
     The ‘general’ prereq is the status of education the player is on, if we use Education Level, that will be the basis of this. At the moment it is undecided how this will affect th research itself, possibly it will increase the cost of researching projects on TLs higher than the EL currently is, but as this will put some restraints on players freedom in his research, we may try to come up with something else. However, the EL can affect the chances of players losing/forgetting advances. How excactly this will be handled is undecided, but the basic idea is that if your state suffers a major catastrophe, such as being overrun by illiterate barbarians, advances which explicitly deal with high-order societies may be lost, such as Aquaducts when you don’t have any large cities. The trick is of course how to implement this, at the moment my idea is to use the ‘tags’ (briefly descriped above) and the Education level, we´ll see how it works out.


    VI. What Research does

    Now that you know what you can do for research it´s time to ask what research can do for you. The excact effects of each advance is something we can´t do until the game system is more or less intact because most of advances modify the game system. Here is a general list over the areas advances can affect and an estimation of how large each listing should be. Note that many/most advances will have effects from more than one listing, so the percentage does not add up to 100%.
    - ‘Hard’ prereqs [10-20%]
    - Give bonus to agricultural production (including fisheries) [5%]
    - Give bonus to resource gathering (mining and the like) [5%]
    - Give bonus to industrial production [10%]
    - Give bonus to labor productivity [5-10%]
    - Give bonus economical affairs (trade, investments, financial matters) [10%]
    - Give bonus to administration/bureaucracy [5-10%]
    - More advanced military units [10-15%]
    - More advanced transportation methods [5%]
    - Faster communications [5%]
    - Give bonus to stability / people’s happiness [20-30%]
    - Allow new forms of implementing control (pol.power) [5-10%]
    - Give bonus to health/sanitation [5%]
    - Give bonus to education [5-10%]
    - More advanced military theories [5%]
    If you feel there is something wanting, or if you want to see some listings given higher/lower percentage, then send us your ideas (Forum or e-mail).



  • #2
    H: looks good. I'll have to think some and make more useful comments later.

    One thing that came up as I was putting together the start of the military model:

    There are Engineer units out there among the military, doing Military Engineering kind of stuff. [ ] Now in the real world, a LOT of research discoveries [that we are calling tech advancements] came about because of the Military.

    Do you like the idea that the ENG military unit might also be a + to the civ's research capabilities?

    In general, I think we all need to look for things that "cross the lines"...

    Comment


    • #3
      I'm reminded of a really old game - 'Crisis in the Kremlin'....

      Increasing military spending did indeed add quite a large bonus to research, but at the same time increased wastage by a huge amount. Something along those lines shouldn't be too difficult to model.

      That game had a massive chart showing all kinds of interlinked dependencies between different types of state funding. If anyone can dig up a manual for that game (I have no idea if I'll be able to find mine) it would be v. helpful IMO.

      Jim

      Comment


      • #4
        JimC:

        Tell me this isn't scary. I just spent 30 minutes rooting around in the garage and actually found that thing! Yep, the whole package, Manual and all. The software is on five 5.25 floppies, LOL

        There are 4 charts in the book which seem to be what you have in mind. There is also a reference card which appears to duplicate them (with quite a few changes). I can scan them at work on Tuesday, and mail 'em out that evening.

        Extra Scary: I actually have a "functioning" 5.25 floppy in my system, so I was able to review the disks in hopes of finding an electronic manual. No luck. They didn't do that in '92, I guess. The readme did say that the card is more up to date than the charts in the book, though.

        To La Fayette, as fine a gentleman as ever trod the Halls of Apolyton

        From what I understand of that Civ game of yours, it's all about launching one's own spaceship before the others do. So this is no big news after all: my father just beat you all to the stars once more. - Philippe Baise

        Comment


        • #5
          James Bond Strikes:

          I don't have a scanner, but I DO have a digital camera. Voila! Card jpegs! They're a bit fuzzy, but everything is legible.
          To La Fayette, as fine a gentleman as ever trod the Halls of Apolyton

          From what I understand of that Civ game of yours, it's all about launching one's own spaceship before the others do. So this is no big news after all: my father just beat you all to the stars once more. - Philippe Baise

          Comment


          • #6
            WAIT a MINUTE !

            Wasnt that game a big flop?

            *LOL*

            Comment


            • #7
              Druid2:
              Thanks for your response. I´m thinking about your suggestion, I think we already have included better research during war time in the system, both by decreasing the cost of projects if the state feels it is threatened or in dire situation and by allowing for increased RP production under the same circumstances. Lets remember that in a war a society doesn´t necceserily come up with more/better military ideas, but rather that it´s more willing to try out older ideas when they see the need for it (which mostly happens through actual fighting. F.e. the idea for the Tank dates from about 1900 (difficult to be excact, da Vinci thought of armored vehicles for that matter), but all armies rejected it until the stalemate on the western front in WWI showed the need for it. So IMO it is more realistic to lower the cost for military projects when the people feels the need for it, rather than give extra RP for special army units. But if we feel that my idea doesn´t work well we can change it, maybe to something you suggest.
              Krull:
              I would very much like to see this chart you have. As we are trying to have close ties between research and the game situation we must device a system that is both realistic and not too complicated. To be honest I´m not certain that the system I propose is both accurate enough and yet flexible and easy to implement. So any suggestions in this vein are welcome.

              Comment


              • #8
                Hrafnkell:

                I think Druid2 is talking about military origin of non-Military technology. Computers are a good example. Without defense spending pushing forward IC technology in the early stages it would have taken Much longer IMO to get to the computers we have today. Interchangeable parts were, if I recall correctly, first used to assemble muskets. Interchangable parts' biggest uses were in fostering non-Military factories of all kinds...

                Anyway, that's what I think he means

                -Mark
                Project Lead for The Clash of Civilizations
                A Unique civ-like game that will feature low micromanagement, great AI, and a Detailed Government model including internal power struggles. Demo 8 available Now! (go to D8 thread at top of forum).
                Check it out at the Clash Web Site and Forum right here at Apolyton!

                Comment


                • #9
                  It took a while to read that novel above and to rest after reading...

                  I think this is very overcomplicated. The idea with the tags of a project seems good. - But what sense do you see in splitting up technology topics this way: Crafts, Industry, Hard Science...?

                  The result will be anyway the same: there will be technologies discovered and lead to various benefits and further new technologies. So why not keep it easy?

                  The only one thing that is to handle beyond the tech tree is the effect of cultural and economical state.

                  Of course if your cities have no access to water you can't develop a navy. If your people are very religious you have problems to develop anything.

                  I suggest the following:
                  - Keep these tags and assign an amount of 'research points' to every tag.
                  - The output of research points by the civilization is split up, too, into these tags. But your influence is restricted. You can't assign your population's ideas directly. Depending on culture and economy and government type your research points are calculated.
                  - To use (discover) a technology the civ has to own its prerequisites and produce the amount of research points for every tag of the technology.
                  - Of course this will lead often to the situation that a project's research points for some tags are fulfilled and wasted every turn while other tags complete only slowly.
                  - Therefore I would suggest that your civ is spending surplus research points to resarch other technologies than the main project. - Depending on its culture and preferences.
                  - If you want to influence these secondary researches directly (and enhance micromanagement, hehe) I suggest a tech queue.
                  - I suggest the tech queue should be visible anyway and you influence it if you wish and leave it if not.

                  Peter

                  ------------------
                  3DTT - the 3D sequel to Transport Tycoon - demo 4.0 coming soon
                  Path of Mankind. Turnbased Civ-like game - demo 15 coming soon
                  3DTT - 3D Transport, Traffic and Economy simulation - Alpha 7.0 coming soon http://www.digitalprojects.com/way-x

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Just a thought:

                    The user can reach the same advance in different way. (i.e. You can research the antigrav through science or you can switch to religious government and your priests can levitating if you research levitation.)

                    Blade Runner

                    [This message has been edited by Blade Runner (edited May 31, 1999).]
                    Blade

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      I more or less agree with Peter's suggested modifications. I think the tags are indeed good, and do basically elimiate the need for the categories.

                      I support the main point that the people mostly research what they will because of social particulars. The government Should be able to add Additional resources to any of the things the society is going after. (This is the way I have it in Clash v0.05)

                      The major distinction I'd make from Peter's comments is that we shouldn't break down techs into rigid bins of needing this much military tag contributed, and this much hard science to "earn" the tech. If the military wants the tech badly enough, and the prerequisites are there, they should get it if they reach the Total points for the tech. It doesn't matter IMO if the other possible contribution runs dry. Also I think this is much smoother from the player's point of view. Player should understand that tech A isn't being achieved because Nobody in the society is interested in it. IMO the player will find it harder to deal with not getting it only because some little piece of society doesn't support it.

                      I like the suggestion that the player can either influence the current tech direction or not. In essence if you already have a military-oriented culture and government you will always get the military tech path anyway. Perhaps a middle-road interface would also allow the player to add x% contribution thru money to any new tech with a military tag, but not any other ones. One more alternative would be for the player to designate some key techs for support, and anything that is a prerequisite to those techs would get x% support and everything else some other value, or nothing.

                      Peter: Not all religious doctrine is antagonistic to tech. I think the Puritans are widely claimed as a positive influence in the industrial revolution in England since they were sources of capital among other things. In essence they couldn't blow their money on anything fun so they invested it instead, sometimes in new technology.

                      BR: I think we need to keep things in the core system on the real world. When people put out mods they can of course do anything that they want.

                      -Mark
                      Project Lead for The Clash of Civilizations
                      A Unique civ-like game that will feature low micromanagement, great AI, and a Detailed Government model including internal power struggles. Demo 8 available Now! (go to D8 thread at top of forum).
                      Check it out at the Clash Web Site and Forum right here at Apolyton!

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Here are some additional thoughts on the changes we´re contemplating. I haven´t really had the time to make every change needed on the old proposals, so there are undoubtedly some controversies, but I think that at this stage we only need to know what our general plans are, not how the exact model is going to be like.

                        - Each project has tags assigned to it, most will have a single tag, some 2 or even (rarily) 3. As Mark suggested players can view at any time the ‘tech-tree’, which will be divided into a number of segments, roughly corresponding to their tag. This tech-tree structure serves no other porpose than to give the players general idea on what direction they should/could head in.
                        - There are no Tech levels any longer, but the prereqs will be structured in such a way that no drastic irregularities should occur in research (i.e. players researching something highly advanced while still on a rather primitive stage). This will most likely increase the need for ‘Hard’ prereqs, as the TLs no longer provide certain restraints.
                        - ‘Soft’ prereqs will still be included. Each project-tag has a number associated with it, if players have discovered less number of projects with the same tag type the cost of the project is increased, maybe by 5% per digit under the tag-number. This of course makes projects with more than one tag more valuable (possible also harder to get), I guess those who´re familiar with the old civ board-game can relate to that (Mysticism, anyone? :-)).
                        - Possible this same tag-number can be used to determine how/if a project can be forgotten/lost, although I´m unsure on how to compute this excactly.
                        - As the Fields are out, there are no restrictions on how many/few projects with a given tag are researched at time. The only general restrictions are the prereqs and some social conditions/game status (The Navy/Sea thing again, although, just for the records Peter the Great Did construct a fleet before Russia aquired any coastal territories).
                        - IMO we must be careful in how we implement the people’s research efforts. Of course I agree that their need/willingness/culture etc. should greatly influence research, I think the general decision on what to research should be left to the player (unless he elects to let the AI run things for him, of course). Speaking for myself I hate games where the system bans you from doing something or which forces you onto a certain path. I maintain that ‘positive restraints’ are more effective and more fun than rules and regulations, it´s easier to pull the donkey than to push him :-). So, IMHO, we should use a combination of more RPs on certain tags and lower cost for certain projects in order to ‘lead’ the players onto the road they should (according to their cultural/governmental/economical etc. settings) take. If a player ruling a Military State Wants to research Civil Rigths project rather than Very-Very-Very Large Gun project, we should allow them that choice, how stupid as it may be.
                        - There will likely be some changes made (possible major ones) to the way projects are researched and especially how the RPs and Project Cost is calculated, with more empahsize on the tags, I haven´t yet checked this out closely enough to say wheter the system as it is can be used (but I´m crossing my fingers for it to be so). Any comments on this are welcome.

                        Well, I seem to have run out of steam for now... I´ll pick this up later, when I can think of some more clever things to say :-).

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          OK, I agree that ridding ourselves of the Fields might simplify things somewhat. I´ll try modify the model to focus on the tags. My only concern is that this might make the 'tech-tree' a bit unorganized and, thus, difficult for players to navigate. But we´ll see.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            How about if you keep the current general organization but it is there in name only? So a tech tree would have a band at the top for Crafts that might fluctuate in width but that would be the place for the player to look for clockmaking or whatever. The next band would be industry... A color scheme like in the civ2 tech chart would help also IMO.

                            One other issue. The interface should show the player generally how much technological creativity the society produces in each area so that they can see the connection between culture/government type and technological advancement. (perhaps even broken down by class, though this may be pushing it) If they can't make the connection as to why their tech is slow or uneven, it'll more likely lead to player frustration than deep strategic thought.

                            [This message has been edited by Mark_Everson (edited May 31, 1999).]
                            Project Lead for The Clash of Civilizations
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                            • #15
                              About the tech and the military : I'm not so sure military has always driven research. In fact, I guess it's a bit more complicated than that, and here there should be a distinction between technology and science.
                              For example, do you really think men have discovered flight because the soldiers wanted armed planes? I dont think so; I think men have always wanted to fly (remember the greek myth of Icare), and when they've had the technologies available (the internal combustion engine) they have built planes. This was in the beginning of the XX century, in France and America mainly, where there were no wars at this time. They learned to fly several years, and then WWI begun. From this point, the military needs have driven the progresses in the flight tech field, but not before.
                              IMO the same is true for tank warfare : the cars existed before the war, and the english built the first tank during the war because they did need it.
                              So, my point is : discoveries do not really come from the military needs, but as soon as a tech is discovered, if it is usable by the army, then the state/government will put high investments on this tech to develop it and make it useful for warfare. Also, I guess this is mainly true for the modern era (remember the Chinese : they had discovered gunpowder long before it became a weapon, they did not use as a weapon because they did not need it).
                              One last example : atomic energy has been discovered at the beginning of this century, and I guess that SF-writers had invented the A-bomb long before the militaries...

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