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  • The Gov.Model (long)



    The Governmental Model




    Contents:




    Overview



      [*]System

        [*]Classes[*]Anti/Pro status[*]Demographics[*]Geographics[*]Contribution[*]Social Tension & Unrest[*]Governmental structure[*]Add-ons[/list=a]
        [*]Interface

          [*]Set Ruling status[*]Change political distribution[*]Issue decrees[*]Characters & Offices[/list=a][/list=a]



          Overview




          The government, like culture, touches upon every aspect of society, and thus, of gameplay, for this reason it has many faces and many functions. The Governmental Model presented here is divided into two parts, the System and the Interface. The distinction should be obvious; the System chapter deals with the basic structure of the governmental form, what it effects and what affects it. The Interface chapter deals with how players can use the system and what options they have.




          The players are the invisible hand behind the ruler in their state, even if they don't represent the ruler as such they interact through him, so the most important thing for players to keep an eye on is the status of the ruler: if he's weak, they're weak. Here is a list of the things rulers must keep in mind (thus players too, even if it conflicts with their own interests). The list is in order of importance:




            [*]Independent power of ruler.


            Notes: The degree of authority is of course the biggest concern for a ruler, if his wishes aren't followed, he isn't much of a ruler. Also, rulers understandably want to control every aspect in society, if possible. This is limited by available technology and factions within the state competing with the ruler for power. To keep those elements peaceful and to keep things running the ruler is often forced to dole out power.


            [*]Internal stability.


            Notes: If a ruler wants a long and (hopefully) prosperous rule he must keep his subjects as happy as possible. The two biggest factors in social disturbances are: a) unrest created by unfair/unbalanced distribution of power and b) cultural disputes, this is why wise(?) rulers try to keep people of different culture separate, often taken drastic measures to do so.


            [*]Security.


            Notes: Mainly in the form of security from external threat, strong military is a must for any ruler intent on surviving. Of course he is often forced to use armed force against internal threats too, but too much reliance on the military is a two-edged sword, the army can one day turn against its master.


            [*]Economical growth.


            Notes: What, the economy only in 4th place? Yes, even those rulers who are very much interested in economical affairs (and they're more than to be expected) can only do something concrete in this field once the above criteria are more or less met. Also, as economical growth often means giving his subjects freer reign this can lead to conflicts with the things above.


            [*]Social and technological innovations (research, in other words).[/list=a]





            Notes: This has only been a limited interest to rulers until the 19th century or so, except sometimes in military innovations. This is especially true for all kinds of social reforms, unless they expressly increase the power of the ruler. It goes the same for them as other people, they're afraid off change.




            The intent of the model is to allow players to interact more closely with their own subjects and keep an eye on his political position. Other civ-games tend to ignore the internal situation, thus putting all the emphasize on external factors, notably military expansion. Action is of course vitally important for players to enjoy the game, otherwise it just becomes dull and boring. But action isn't limited to armed conflict, it can just as well be the eternal power struggle found inside the borders of each and every state. That is what we want to capture here. I've tried to make the model as realistic as possible while keeping the things said above in mind. I'm not sure I succeeded, the model may be too sluggish and complicated to be really interesting. So we may very well have to trim it down.




             



              [*]System[/list=a]



                  [*]Classes[/list=a][/list=a]

                   




                  The people of the state are divided into Classes. The Classes as they stand at the moment are:



                    [*]Principal Class (PC) [*]Upper Class (UC) [*]Military Class (MC) [*]Religion Class (RC) [*]Labor Class (LC) [*]Minorities/dependants Class (DC)[/list]

                    The Principal Class consists of the ruler, his immediate family and associates and civil servants of low standings (i.e. not nobles, military leaders, etc.). This number will tend to rise in time, which will have both good and bad consequences. The Upper Class consists of those of higher ranking, whether it stems from nobility, party standings, wealth, whatever. Although this class is relatively few in numbers it is most often the one most likely to usurp the ruler and cause him problems. Note that the highest elements of the other classes (even, to some extent, the PC) are in this class, so the highest-ranking military leaders, churchmen and the wealthiest citizens are in the UC. The Military Class consists of course of the soldiers, as well as all the personnel that connect to the armed forces in one way or another, such as armaments makers and supply providers/distributors, both civilian and military. The Religion Class consists of the clergy and all those who in one way or another provide the spiritual needs of the community. The Labor Class is by far the largest class, in most times up to 50-60% of the population fall into this category (i.e. most of the workforce). The M/d Class consists of children and the elderly as well as invalids. As mentioned below slaves will possible be in this class too. Note that the definition of children varies greatly in time, in many (most) places throughout history children have started to work very young, between the age of 7 and 12, or something like that. Today, however, many youths stay in school until they're between 16 and 20 and often longer.




                    We will probably use this division for the initial programming stages of the model, but if, through playtesting or further development, we feel that this division is inadequate we may add classes. Most likely we may split the Labor Class into Workers/Peasants-Class and Burghers/Merchants/Middle-Class. Also, it’s possible we’ll add a specific class for Slaves, the idea now is to include them in the Minorities/dependants Class. Another idea would be to ‘attach’ a slave element (consisting of a set number of slaves) to a class, thus a slave element in the MC could be gallery slaves or the like, PC and UC slave elements would be servants, even fairly high-ranking depending on the rights slaves enjoyed in the society, LC slave elements are forced labor, agricultural workers, etc. This could however pose some problems to implement, and is much more complex and a potential MM suction for players.




                    As for how the population is divided into the classes this would mainly depend on the social form, f.e. the birth rate/infant death, expenditure on the military, the administration cost of the government, what class rules and so on. Also, there is always some movement between classes, although rarely in high numbers. Here is a very crude estimate of how many will be in each class:





                        [*]Principal Class: This mainly depends on the governmental form (democracy demands more bureaucracy than despotism) and the level of administration (bureaucracy) in the state. [2-20%] [*]Upper Class: The tops from the other classes (mainly the M, R and L) are here, ca. 1/6th. So the number in this class very much depends on how populous the other classes are. Governmental form can also affect this (feudalism and aristocratic rule would increase this). [5-15%] [*]Military Class: This of course depends mostly on the size of the army, but I think few societies can maintain a large army, at least not for a long time, and then with some economical repercussions. Nomadic cultures are probably the only ones who can maintain proportionally large armies for long periods. [2-30%, possibly higher in rare cases] [*]Religion Class: This class should be fairly small in most times, the only time that a significant proportions of the populace are here are either under a powerful Theocracy or intensive Monasterism. [2-10%] [*]Labor Class: This should be the largest class in most times (the DC may be larger in modern societies). I´d imagine that if the class has less than 30% of the population in it there could be serious economical consequences. [30-60%] [*]Minorities/dependants: The number in this class can fluctuate very much. The things that can influence this include: the birth/death rates, infant deaths (healthcare), youth culture (Elvis and co. J), disenfranchised minorities and slavery. [15-40%][/list][/list]

                         




                        1.2 Anti/Pro status







                        One of the most important things for players to keep an eye on is how much support the government has. The governmental structure itself is discussed elsewhere, but here we look at the governmental support of the classes. Before venturing further I must mention that its possible that this will somehow be incorporated into Manu’s Culture Model, for a more far-reaching effects (and to see the support from other elements in society than the classes). If this happens the things discussed here will undoubtedly undergo much changing, even beyond recognition. But at the moment we feel that the effects of the anti/pro status, as well as the things affecting it, are mostly found in the governmental spectrum, thus it probably belongs here, even if there will be some strong ties with Manu’s model.




                        For each Class there is a variable (for a want of better word J) that tracks how many in the Class support the current regime and how many are against it (possibly this will be done on a provincial basis, if it’s not too much hassle). Those (within a class) who support him are pro-government, those against him are anti-government, the rest is considered neutral. Those who are anti-government can affect various activities by the government (negatively of course), while those who are pro can affect it positively, although they don't do as much good as the anti does bad. The proportion within each class that is anti or pro depends very much on how politically aware the class is. The Upper Class is always very politically aware, thus they're are mainly anti and/or pro, there are few neutrals in that class. On the other hand the Labor Class is seldomly very politically aware (don't let today's situation blind you J), so they are most often majority neutral until the advent of public education, newspaper, the Enlightenment, etc. As for the other classes, the Military is often very politically aware, for the Religious class, this depends on the Religion (some are more active/reclusive than others). Of course many things can affect these basic assumptions, such as cultural standings, social advancements, spread of political theories, extent of economical and individual freedom and so on.




                        The pro/anti status is used to determine how much unrest (Social Tension) the Class generates each turn (see also 1.5 and 1.6 for further details). Those who are anti-gov generate more unrest than the neutrals, who in turn generate more than the pro-govs. The exact numbers they generate are undecided at the moment and will probably only be definitely set after extensive playtest for balance. For now you can assume that the neutrals generate twice as much as the pros and half as much as the antis.




                        The pro/anti status also affects the administration of the government. The anti-group in a ruling class diminishes the efficiency of the administrative work the class does. The pro-element can on the other hand give positive modifiers to administration efficiency, although not as much. I was thinking perhaps 1.2 for pro, 0.5 for anti. This means that if a class is 100% pro (only in the fabled Utopia J), administration efficiency is 120% (Dilbert and his colleagues would probably not buy this math J). Of course, there are other modifiers to administration efficiency, but the size of the anti-group within a class roughly determines the amount of corruption (the ‘lethality’ of this corruption is then based on the gov.form).




                        The pro/anti status will probably have some affects on economy, although I'm unsure exactly what. At the very least it will affect corruption (as mentioned above) and possible how fast/efficiently governmental orders (economical or not) are carried out (this is probably only possible if the anti/pro status is checked for each province too).




                        Here is a very general summary of how the classes will react (in pro/anti terms) to various events or actions in the game.




































                         



                        Political Affairs



                        Econ. Affairs



                        Military Affairs



                        Cultural Affairs



                        Upper Class

                        High


                        Medium


                        Medium


                        Medium




                        Military

                        Medium


                        Low


                        High


                        Medium




                        Religion

                        Medium


                        Medium


                        Low


                        High




                        Labor Class

                        Low


                        High


                        Medium


                        Medium



                        Pol.Affairs > Changes in government, diplomatic treaties (not Peace treaties, that’s Mil.Aff.), rise/decline of political power within the state.




                        Econ.Affairs > Taxes&tarrifs, restrictions on economical activity, prices, shortages of necessities (famines), unfair/bungling governmental interference in the economy.




                        Mil.Affairs > DoW (either way), mobilizing/demobilizing armies, winning/losing battles, winning/losing wars, war atrocities (only, other atrocities are in Cul.Affairs, (attempted) genocides (like the Holocaust) would probably be in Cul.Aff. too), army plundering, brigandry&pirates.




                        Cul.Affairs > Religious disputes, radical changes in class structure, rise/decline of education level, nationalism, minority groups, environment, erosion of traditions.




                        Of course the biggest influence is whether the class is part of the government or not. Although there can exist anti-gov elements within governmental classes they rarely grow bigger unless the ruler is bungling things up. Classes which are not part of government but feel they should (the Contribution-rule below will probably be used to handle this) get anti-gov at an accelerated pace.




                        Some further info on what options players have in increasing pro-gov sentiment in the classes can be found in the Interface chapter.




                         




                        1.3 Demographics




                        The most important element in the governmental model is how the political power is distributed in the state. This is calculated for each province, although players can view graphs showing the average power distribution over the state as a whole. Note that the political power, although only represented as a single number here, consists of many different elements in reality, such as economical or military powers, control over the judicial system, legislation powers and so on. For simplicity's’ sake we've lumped them all together, as their effects are similar. The political power each class has is represented by a percentage number of the total available political power in the province (100%). The political distribution is the largest single factor in determining the ruling structure of the state and how strong/weak the government is. The political power of the Principal Class, which we can also call state class, is of course the first thing to look at. But more often than not the PC by itself has insufficient power (economical and political) to rule efficiently. So the ruler (player) is often forced to depend on other class(es) to help in ruling the state. Of course the highest authority always lies with the ruler, but in order to rule regions not in the ruler’s immediate vicinity and to take care of the multiple tasks the state must attend to on behalf of its subjects (providing access to water, build roads, regulate education, wage wars, etc) the ruler must rely on factions not part of the government. Note that the political power of each class is determined on a provincial bases, but for determining the overall political power of the class the average of the pol.power in all the provinces is calculated, the population of each province will probably enter into this calculation, so high pol.power in populous provinces counts for more.




                        The exact procedure in choosing the partner (Associate) class is found in 2.1, for now lets just say that this involves some tough choices for players. The more powerful the class(es) they choose to work with are the stronger the government is, but the associate class(es) can become rivals for the throne. Another factor is that some classes feel it's their right to participate in the government, this depends on social and cultural background and economical strength. If classes which feel they should get a share of the spoils are excluded from the government for a long time they're liable to revolt. So the ruler must be flexible and take care to throw potential grumblers an occasional bone or two. These dealings are the core of the internal politics system we want to represent. Of course, those who don't want to spend much time on this can let the AI handle things, although players must handle any drastic changes (revolts, change of ruler).




                        The political distribution at the start of the game (or scenario) is pretty much pre-set, although players can influence this by social and cultural pickings they choose before the game starts. Games starting in antiquity will predominantly have a monarchy at the start, here is a listing of the typical power distribution at the start.





                            [*]Principal Class: Will almost always control the largest slice of the power-cake. The basic control level is ca. 70%, this can increase if players start f.e. with a compact state with highly centralized government where the ruler is considered divine, it can decrease for various reasons, f.e. if the state is very large (more power to local lords); if the people (in cities) enjoy considerable freedom; if there is a strong independent church; etc. This can lower the PC control down to 40-50%. [*]Other Classes: The power enjoyed by other classes at start depends on the settings the player chooses for his starting state. F.e. if they choose to start with a large army the Military Class is likely to start with a significant political power. However, the Principal Class will almost always start as the single biggest political power.[/list][/list]

                            The Demographic distribution touches upon most aspects of gameplay. It determines how easily players can influence their state and how well they can enforce their will. It determines the course their state is on, the pace of economical and technological growth, the availability and quality of troops, how happy the people are and influences relations with other states. There is no simple formula for players to follow (although experienced/shrewd players should find out pretty soon what works best in specific situations).




                            High Principal Class rating is almost always good, but it can proof difficult for players to maintain high level unless they've made themselves ‘invaluable’ to the people (see 1.5 for more details).




                            The Upper Class usually poses the biggest threat for the ruler, but is can be




                            very helpful, even essential, for the ruler in keeping his subjects in control and things running.




                            The Military Class is likewise a source of potential threat for the throne and it can be difficult (and dangerous) to wrest control of them once they got it. But a strong MC can be invaluable for a state facing great external threats, or for expansion-minded rulers.




                            The Religion Class is often of great assistance to the ruler in maintaining the internal peace, and in addition they can help with the administration, provide funds and education, and even give bonuses to research. But the RCs tendency to fall into traditional patterns and routine rituals makes them unfavorable long-term ally.




                            The Labor Class is the greatest source of wealth, but the trick is how to pry the coins from them with the least disturbance and without impoverishing or smother them too much. You don't want to kill your Golden Goose, you want it to grow fatter. Of course the LC is generally more willing to cough up some dough if they have some political power, but the public is a volatile mass of treacherous emotions, if you want to loosen the reigns on your race horse be sure it'll head in the right direction.




                            The DC usually has little say in political matters, but under a democratic government they can turn into valuable voters, so don't count them out.




                            As you can see there are few details here, these will be worked out as we tie each Modul together.




                            1.4 Geographics




                            Distance plays a major role in the governance of a state. The ruler, no matter what power he exercises by himself can never be everywhere at once. So rulers are always forced to depend on underlings in the day-to-day running of large parts of their domain. The effects of this are governed by the Geographic, or Geocentric, rule. The Geographic schematic shows basically at what level the political power lies. There are three possibilities:





                                [*]Centralized [*]Provincial [*]Square/Village[/list][/list]

                                Note that we've joined the Square/Village groups from the original proposals. The total control (i.e. 100%) is divided among the 3 groups. As it stands, there is only one Geographic schematic, used for the whole state. This is done to simplify things.




                                The more centralized the government is the ruler can expect his orders to be carried out a little faster, but as this is pretty much confined to his powerbase this can lead to gradual shift of the powerbase from the outlying areas inwards. F.e. the ruler (player) has a general idea that his populace is, say , 10 million, equally divided into 5 provinces. Based on this knowledge, and some general idea on the prosperity level, he decides that a 20% tax will give him the cash he needs. However, the total amount is only collected near his powerbase, in the outlying areas maybe only 10% or 15% reach the Treasury. So the ruler has either to set the general tax rate higher, which means those nearest his powerbase will suffer, or raise the tax rate in the outlying areas, which will anger them for being taxed more than others. Note that although low centralized control can be bad for rulers, too much centralization can also be bad, because it tends to kill off private innovation and investments.




                                A provincial power means that province based authority is the highest authority. Whether this power is in the hands of the ruler or not is determined by the demographic distribution. So the provincial power enjoys greater self-control, which has the positive effects of increasing the efficiency (less risk of bad decisions because of insufficient knowledge of the current situation) and the negative effects of making any kind of uprisings in the province more dangerous.




                                Whether square/village (square from now on) is a good or bad thing depends very much on the governmental form. Basically, high square percentage means more power in the hands of the people, which is good in republic/democratic states, but bad in autocratic states. It has positive effects on people's productivity and happiness, but puts limits on what the ruler can do (i.e. its more difficult to make arbitrary decisions like executing someone without trials or forced conscription).




                                The basic determinant on the geographic distribution is the demographic distribution. The link between the two can go both ways, but mostly in the demo-to-geo direction. In essence, the PC relates to centralized rule, the LC (and DC) to square rule and the others (UC, RC, MC) to provincial rule (unless they're part of government, in which case they relate a bit to centralized rule). If the demographic power of class(es) is higher than the corresponding geographic group, it/they try to raise the geographic group to the same level. This happens automatically a bit at a time, unless prevented by some other actions/events. Example: The UC has 20%, the MC 5% and the RC 10% pol.power in the state (average of all provinces). Their total is 35%, so if the Geocentric chart shows the Provincial level at only 20% the classes will try to raise it. If there is a big gap between the demo and geo levels the connected classes may feel they're not allowed to ‘express’ their power fully and thus generate unrest.




                                I envision that culture, religion and the general social status will have some effects on this, but am unsure on how exactly. Their influence will in any case be minimal in most cases.




                                Some specific events and actions taken by the ruler can affect the geographic distribution, f.e. who holds the highest authority in a province, and if the ruler builds a lot of forts it can increase the provincial level. I have no detailed list of these events at this moment, we'll probably make it as we go along. The main thing is to have fairly clear idea on what can affect the Geographic distribution and what things it can affect.




                                 




                                1.5 Contribution




                                A very important feature in determining what each class wants in government is it's contribution to the well-being of the state as a whole. This contribution can come in many forms, the two most important are a) which class(es) provide the economic foundation of the state (especially the government) and b) which class(es) maintain the running structure of the government (i.e. run the administration).




                                Any Class believes that its rightful share of the power in the government is derived from both cultural expectations (based largely upon long-term historical values) and the contributions of the class to the success or power of the Civ.




                                Each Class knows its rightful share of the power within the government (the demographics) and compares this to its Actual share of power in the govt. A class' contentment with the current govt. system is the difference between its actual power within the government and its rightful share. On a practical note, the player will not see these numbers. This information will be delivered to the player in messages. Examples: "the peasants feel over-taxed"... "the nobles demand more power, and if you don't..."




                                Cultural Expectations of power of different classes will be based upon some sort of moving average of the governmental power of the classes Over something like a 100-year or 70-year period. I think this assumption is reasonable; people get used to the way things have "always been".




                                Contributions of Classes to the Civ (subject to change):





                                    [*]Principal Class: 5 x change in Military+Labor+Religion contrib.s (see below) + administration duties. [*]Upper Class: Gets (takes) contribs by other classes (see below) + possible administration duties. [*]Military Class: Contributes by protection from ext. threats, and new conquests + possible internal peacekeeping. [*]Labor Class: Contributes by paying taxes and gets credit for econ. growth. [*]Religious Class: Contrib. through happiness and social welfare functions + taxes. [*]Minorities / Dependents: Rarely contribute, but could possible give some stability bonuses (difficult to define). [/list][/list]

                                    Notes on Contributions of Classes:




                                    Principal Class derives credit for how well things are going. this is most easily expressed by rates of change in mil, econ… success. If the civ is doing well people tend to be willing to work with leader who is doing a good job. Perhaps even taxes can be raised, etc. Obviously this number can fluctuate greatly between turns, but the basic princip is that rulers are rewarded when things go well and penalized when they go badly. The PC can also get contribution from other classes and count them as their own. F.e. if the established religion becomes state church the PC can get some of the contrib. from the RC. These ‘takings’ are mainly acquired through research (social) advances and only apply in particular situations.




                                    The Upper Class are "superlative" members of Mil, Labor and Religion. This means that they can ‘absorb’ much of the contributions from the other. F.e. it is undeniable that the peasants are one of the most vital contributors to the early states, but they rarely reap any rewards for this, their ‘represantives’, their land lords, are the ones to get all the ‘credit’. The average ‘takings’ of the UC (which is pretty much the 'at start' settings) are: 60% form the MC, 60% from the RC and 80% from the LC and DC. These settings can change through political power, basically the ‘takings’ percentage is lowered by the political power of the class in question. Also, various research (social) advancements can influence this. And the ‘takings’ can never exceed double the provincial geographic level minus the square level (these calculations can change through testing). Some further modifications will possible be added at a later stage. The basic idea is that while the aristocracy is powerful (in every sense of the word) they ‘grab’ contributions from other classes. But as the states evolve, f.e. with increased commerce and non-land based economy, with class parliaments, and even absolute monarchies, their hold on society diminishes. I think the best way to represent these changes is through the research system. Another idea is to tie their ‘takings’ from the LC only (or mostly) with the agricultural production, a bit with the resource gathering (i.e. mining) production, but very little with industrial production and trade. Thus, when the industry and trade increases, the ‘rural’ production diminishes proportionally, and the UC’s ‘takings’ are less. As for the ‘takings’ in the MC and RC the UC will probably hold longer onto those, but as the government gradually plants its own servants in religious and military posts the UC ‘takings’ lessen (in some cases going over to the PC instead).




                                    There is an example on the web-site which further illuminates what have been discussed above, but note that some of the calculations are different.




                                    If a class feels its getting the short end of the political power stick they get unhappy. Instead of affecting the Unrest level (see next section) directly, it affects the pro/anti status (see 1.2). So classes which feel they've less power than due, will gradually grow more anti-gov, with all the negative affects that has. On the other hand the opposite also holds true, i.e. those with more political power get pro-gov (they want to keep things as they are).




                                     




                                    1.6 Social Tension & Unrest




                                    Keeping his subjects happy is a vitally important consideration for a ruler. Unlike other games of this type social unrest, culminating in rebellions or revolts, are a real and ever-present danger for players, and which can have much more serious consequences than the puny revolts found f.e. in Civ.




                                    I envision some kind of an Unrest Level, I think this must tie into Manu’s social model, even if my model is pretty much only concerned with class unrest I think we must also track unrest in the different cultural and religious factions, and Manu’s system is the best for that. Anyway, the Unrest Level (UL) can be represented by levels, as a percentage, or whatever, it really doesn't matter. The case of course is that the higher the UL is the more restless the populace is and the more likely they will rebel. I know it can be tricky to categorize the cultural and religious elements because they frequently overlap, unless we make a Lot of ULs (not recommended) we must be rather heavy-handed about assigning them to maximum 5 or 6 ULs. As for the classes, there will be one UL for each class. Most political events don't affect the UL of the classes directly, but the anti/pro status instead (see 1.2 above). However, the anti/pro status is then used to generate unrest for each class. As this is a delicate calculations, we want players to be constantly aware of the dangers of unstable society, but not so that this is something they must worry about each and every turn. So I´ll leave the exact formula for how the anti/pro status affects the ULs out for now. Of course, in order to simplify this all, we might simply skip the ULs altogether and use the anti/pro status exclusively for determining the restlessness of the people, but there are many possible events/actions which would aggravate the people without affecting their view of the government, and we still must somehow track the unrest of other social elements beside the classes. So for now I think ULs are the best solution.




                                    Apart from the unrest generated by the anti/pro status (which we call Social Tension), there can also occur immediate increase/decrease to the UL(s) for certain events/actions. F.e. a bad harvest (famine even) would increase the UL, probably for the LC and DC most because they are the ones most likely to suffer. Another thing that can potentially increase (maybe decrease) unrest is the infrastructure, if the populace isn't getting what it wants, they will grumble. This could also possibly affect the anti/pro status.




                                    There should be some negative effects of high ULs apart from more risk of a rebellion (and positive for very happy people). This could f.e. affect: productivity, corruption, tax-collection, army morale, army recruiting, lawfulness (crime), (enemy) covert-operations, migrations, and possible some more. However, I think that these effects must be fairly low, the threat of a revolt because of high UL is enough to worry players I think, without punishing them greatly additionally.




                                    The various ways players have to decrease the UL can be found in section 2.3.




                                    Now, onto revolts. As this is not a governmental-only thing, but can also easily come about f.e. in the social model, this is something me and Manu (and others of course) must work on together for a coherent rules governing revolts. Note that a successful revolt (fomented by the player) can radically alter the pol.power (Demographics) of the state. Here are some points on this:





                                        [*]As Manu mentioned somewhere the reactions of a certain faction (a class f.e.) when it’s ‘fed up’ can vary, from non-violence protests or strikes to armed rebellions. This will depend on several factors, among them the strength (political, military, economical) of the faction, the size of it, how high the UL is, the UL status of other factions (people are more willing to resort to violence if they expect support from other parts of society), as well as effects from cultural standings. [*]What kind of protests/riots break out also depends on what kind of faction it is, some factions are more willing to resort to armed resistance than others. Also, some factions attack the infrastructure (or parts of it), other governmental assets and officials, some are more active in inciting others and so on. Thus, the consequences vary widely, from economical wastage (corruption, strikes, damaged property, etc.) to direct danger to the ruler. [*]In most cases revolts are area-bound, like within a single province. The revolt can of course spread out if nearby provinces are also restless. If the ruler (player) doesn’t deal with the rebels, then in time a riot in a single city by a single class can soon spread out to other factions and other parts of the regime if the populace was unsettled. [*]The method in checking whether a faction will revolt (riot, protest, whatever) will probably be simply to make a check each turn for each faction, based on the UL of the faction. It'd would be more realistic to let some events/actions trigger revolt check, but this may be more difficult to implement. [*]Apart from keeping the ULs low there are basically two things players can do to suppress revolts, ‘buying’ them off or fighting them down (there is a third option: to take the side of the rebels and try to ride them into the ruling seat, but this will probably be rare, although a Lot of fun, see 2.1). By ‘buying them off’ I mean granting them their demands, or at least up to the point that they're pacified. Forcefully suppressing the rebels won’t remove the underlying problem, but the ruler still has his firm hand on the reigns of power. [/list][/list]

                                         




                                        1.7 Governmental structure




                                        I put this in a separate section to emphasize the fact that there are No government types for players to choose between like found in other civ-type games. Players don't choose Monarchy or Theocracy or Democracy. The type of government they have is purely determined by the Demographics.




                                        However, players states will be ‘tag-ed’ in accordance with their government type, for them and everyone to see. So if your Religion Class is very strong, and is part of the government, the state could be named Theocracy. But this is something players don’t choose, it happens automatically according to the Demographic distribution. In order to avoid constant changes in the gov.type the threshold for changes is a bit higher than what is actually needed for the gov.type. Example: lets say that for a Democracy to be proclaimed the LC needs 40% pol.power. But to lose it their pol.power would have to drop below 30%.




                                        The possible types of government thus ‘tag-ed’ would be relatively few, something similar to the one found in Civ or CtP. But note that there can be many different kinds of f.e. democracy or monarchy, so players need to check out the exact Demographic distribution (and the ‘add-ons’, see 1.8) in order to gauge the exact governmental type.




                                        The main reason for these tags is for players to identify more easily with their state, its rather awkward when asked what kind of state you're running to answer ‘well, its where the Labor Class has a lot of power’ J . Also, players not interested in managing the gov.model themselves can instruct the AI to strife for f.e. Theocracy or Democracy. For this we must of course provide the players with adequate information on the advantages/disadvantages of each path.




                                        There is a possibility that the government type tag will have some minor influences in some areas. F.e. players would get diplomatic bonuses when dealing with a state of the same type. This could also have some minor effects on trade, unrest, research, etc. But such effects should never reach a significant level and we must be very careful not to give the tags some bonuses which the Demographic distribution already covers.




                                         




                                        1.8 Add-ons




                                        Apart from the basic governmental type, as determined by computer in accordance with the Demographics (see 1.7 above), players can choose numerous ‘add-ons’ to tailor or flavor their government. These ‘add-ons’ are optional and their usage should never be a decisive factor in players success (or lack thereof). They can have some small affects on many game aspects, many will only do good in certain situations or under certain playing-styles. Mostly this effects will:





                                            [*]Strengthen the political position of certain classes (not necessarily increase it, but rather make it easier for them to hold on to what they have). [*]Affect the happiness of the people. [*]Affect economical production (mainly agricultural) and trade. [*]Have some minor effects on research.[/list][/list]

                                            The total number of ‘add-ons’ is undecided at the moment, as are the exact effects of it. Here is a short (incomplete) list of possible ‘add-ons’, in no particular order:





                                                [*]Feudalism [*]Mercantilism [*]Capitalism [*]Communism [*]Socialism [*]Monasteriscm [*]Divine-Right rulership [*]Absolutism [*]Imperialism [*]Colonialism[/list][/list]

                                                It is also possible that such ideas as slavery, nomadic and nationalism would fit into these rules, then again we may find it best to represent these ‘add-ons’ elsewhere, such as in the social model.




                                                Most of these ‘add-ons’ need a certain social or political prereq to be ‘activated’, and can also drop out once those same conditions are no longer met. Also, the social (cultural, economical, political) status of the state can affect the amount of influence an ‘add-on’ has. Most ‘add-ons’ also need a research advance before it can be activated.




                                                Finally, let me again emphasize the point that the usage of these ‘add-ons’ are purely optional for players.




                                                 



                                                  [*]Interface

                                                    [*]Set Ruling status[/list=a][/list=a]



                                                    Here I'll discuss two things: choosing Associate classes and changing the ruler (the PC). But first, a further elaboration on the Principal Class. The PC consists of two elements, the ruler and the civil servants. For simplicities sake we'll consider the civil servants (the number of which is determined by the administration level and how centralized the government is) as constant, i.e. they won't change or alter even if a new ruler is proclaimed (unless of course the new ruler changes the adm.level). As for the ruler I think we must identify him in more detail than purely with the PC. As we're gonna incorporate characters, its probably best to do this using that system (see below). The characteristics of the ruler aside, we must also identify the cultural background of the ruler, i.e. if the ruling strata is a cultural minority elite, if he's a ‘foreigner’ and so on. The effects on gameplay are mainly that rulers of different culture than the majority of their subjects sit on a bit more unstable throne. The rules used in determining the relations between different cultures (part of the social model) will probably be used as the basis for this.




                                                    Now, onto the Associate Class. As I said somewhere above players must very often choose other class(es) to co-operate with in ruling the state, the PC being too weak to rule on its own. Players can choose two classes as their partners, one is termed Primary, the other Secondary. As the names suggest the Primary Associate Class (PAC) is the closest ally of the ruler (PC), while the Secondary Associate Class (SAC) is only loosely affiliated with the government, basically contributing ca. half of the PAC contributions. Players are free to choose the class they want as Associate Class (AC), of course the PC never needs to be chosen and the DC can only be chosen as SAC and only if the RC or LC are PAC.




                                                    One idea is that players must choose specific classes in order to gain certain government types (i.e. choose the LC in order to gain Democracy), but I think this puts unnecessary restraints on players, the Demographics are a sufficient indicator of where the power lies. Another idea is to take the AC automatically into account when determining the government type, even getting rid of the ‘add-ons’ mentioned above. But IMO the changes in what classes are AC are too frequent to connect it with the governmental type.




                                                    Players can make changes of the AC as often as they like, but I think that the benefits the ACs give the player only gradually come to full force (over a space of ca. 2-5 turns) so if players change it too frequently they may never get full benefits of the survive the AC provides. Classes tend to get unhappy if they’re ‘kicked out of’ government, especially if a PAC is stripped of its position immiedetly, its better to downgrade it first to SAC and then kick it out few turns later. Also note that classes with great political power get unhappy if they're kept out of power for very long. Apart from the unhappiness generated for kicking a class out there are no further complications in changing the AC, i.e. they never ‘refuse’ to go, and all classes always accept AC appointment.




                                                    Associate Classes will help to run the governmental administration and keep internal peace. How successful the associate classes are depends on their political power. At the moment there is no exact formula on how to calculate the benefits. Note that the SAC generally only provides 50% of the benefits. Also note that although the ACs anti-gov faction seldomly increases while the class is AC, the political power of the class tend to increase with time, so if players have the same class as AC for a very long time that class will get very powerful, so the class players associate with should change numerous times throughout the game, both when the former AC has become too entrenched and self-serving (which is almost bound to happen in time) and also when players want to stimulate a certain social trend (f.e. react to higher class-contribution, external threat, gain some social advancements, etc.). For those players who aren't interested in spending a lot of time on this the computer keeps track of all shifts and let the player know if any major changes/catastrophes are approaching (and maybe what options he has to deal with it). The computer will alert players when: a) the current Associate Class(es) (plus the principal) are too weak to keep internal peace(unrest) and/or can't maintain minimum administration. b) a class is close to revolt (and maybe why). c) a class is becoming very powerful. d) there is a major difference between the pol.power and the contributions of a class. e) something more probably…




                                                    The Associate Classes has general influence on the society, notably:




































                                                    AC/Infl.Area

                                                    Econ.growth


                                                    Research


                                                    Stability


                                                    Military




                                                    Upper Class*

                                                    medium


                                                    medium


                                                    medium


                                                    medium




                                                    Military

                                                    low


                                                    medium


                                                    low


                                                    high




                                                    Religion

                                                    low


                                                    low


                                                    high


                                                    medium




                                                    Labor Class

                                                    high


                                                    high


                                                    low


                                                    low



                                                    *= As the Upper Class tends to mirror the other classes its influence can easily be altered, f.e. if the Labor Class is powerful (meaning that the Upper Class has many representatives from the LC) the Upper Class influences would lean more up or down in those areas where the LC is high/low.




                                                    This means that some classes are better suited as AC in certain situations, f.e. if the player has trouble in keeping his subjects happy its advisable for him to choose the RC as partner. Note that I consider all classes equally able in handling the administrative side, thus that is not represented in the table above.




                                                    Further elaborations on the table:



                                                      [*]Econ. growth: Influences the amount of private investments and possible the infrastructure. [*]Research: Affects the RP generation. [*]Stability: Influences the unrest generation (probably for all ULs, although in different amounts). [*]Military: Influences the army recruits, i.e. the possible amount of recruits available, possibly also the quality of the recruits.[/list]

                                                      Also note that rulers can expect their orders to be carried out more efficiently if they have strong partners, the partner classes themselves are usually more willing to obey the ruler than if they were nor part of the government and with strong ACs the orders from rulers can reach his subjects more quickly and easily (i.e. instead of relying only on the Centralized category in the Geographic distribution the Provincial and even Square categories can count a bit).




                                                      Here is an idea from the old BB I had on how to implement the administration effects and the unrest effects of the ACs (plus the PC). I think it is still valid.




                                                      If the total political power of the PC plus the PAC plus half the SAC is more than 75% the administration works at maximum efficiency (according to administration spending and social developments), for every 5% under 75% the efficiency is lowered by 10%. When down to 50% political control (then working at 50% efficiency) the efficiency loss is lowered by the same amount as the lesser political control (i.e. the efficiency percentage is the same as the political control wielded by the factions assigned to ‘administrative’ tasks, there are limits to how inefficient you can get). Note that being on ‘administration duty’ doesn’t affect the factions in any way and, as the ACs pay for some of the administration cost themselves this saves some money for the ruler (any ideas on the administration? Shouldn’t it be handled in the Econ. system? Mark, over to you J ). Also, when under 50%, unrest is generated (see elsewhere), caused by inadequate public services (I think this must be tied into the infrastructure somehow).




                                                      Onto the unrest, if the factions acting as ‘stability elements’ (i.e. the PC plus the ACs) have less than 50% of the political power in the province its considered to be ‘unruly’ and unrest is more easily generated, if its between 50% and 75% the province is considered ‘stabilized’ and unrest is generated normally, if its more than 75% the province is considered as ‘pacified’ and generates unrest at a slower pace. Note also that the potency of revolt in a province will be affected by this, so ‘pacified’ provinces are less likely to fall into total anarchy if a faction rebels.




                                                      The rules for changing the ruler are fairly straight forward. These changes can come in 3 ways, a) the old ruler dies and a new one takes over; b) the old ruler is usurped from within, either through a peaceful Coup d’Etat or revolt, the new ruler then comes from the faction (most likely a class) that usurped the old one; and c) where the country is conquered by foreigners, the new ruler of course being the ruler of the conquerors.




                                                      A) should in most cases be peacefully resolved, the only changes being in the characteristics of the new ruler. But there will be a random factor determining if some sort of a succession struggle ensues. Other players which have made Royal Marriage with the state in question can possibly intervene on behalf of some heir apparent. If the succession struggle is fierce (i.e. if there are two or more candidates for the throne) Civil War may happen. Also, whether the throne was held by a Dynasty or not would influence this (see 2.4 and elsewhere).




                                                      B) can only happen if relatively powerful faction with high anti-gov percentage decides to usurp the throne. Note that less powerful factions can also decide to act against the government, but they will more likely elect other means than killing the ruler because doing so helps them little unless they can then move themselves into ruling position. So they'll instead try terrorism or guerilla operations, or try to carve themselves a separate state out of parts of the old one, especially if the faction is culturally different from the rest. Most Coup d’Etats and revolts resulting in a new ruler (new regime) being proclaimed should be manipulated by the players themselves, they should never be taken by surprise (of course rebellions of lesser magnitude can happen without player’s beforehand knowledge or consent, even assassinations of the ruler resulting in a succession struggle, but large scale overthrowing should never happen unless the player knows of it).




                                                      C) would in most cases throw the player out of the game, but if it was a computer state that ran the player state over players should be allowed to take the computer state over and control it themselves, at least in single-player mode.




                                                      Some further elaborations: Note that for simplicity’s sake players are not forced to change the ruler in order f.e. to go from monarchy to democracy, it is enough for them to change the Demographics so that democracy is proclaimed (see 1.7). However, players may change the ruler automatically when gov.type changes occur, if they so want. No Coup d’Etat or anything of that sort is needed, but this change can aggravate some classes (increase the anti-gov sentiment). For this ruler change the cultural background is automatically considered to be the same as the largest cultural faction within the class with the highest pol.power apart from the PC. The stats of the new ruler is determined randomly, but if the class from which the new ruler came has a character/dynasty associated with it (see below) that character/dynasty may, if the player so chooses, become the new ruler.




                                                      Pretty much the same applies when a Coup d’Etat /revolt occurs, except that players have a little more saying in what character/dynasty reach the throne. Note however that the chaotic nature of a revolt can possibly spin things out of players control. The exact procedure for staging a Coup d’Etat or fomenting a revolution is a bit sketchy at the moment, but this will most likely involve choosing the class(es) involved, possibly some character/dynasty leaders and then simply press the ‘Go’ button when the time is right. Players can choose the class they want, but only those with high anti-gov sentiment will do any good. The success is based on the pol.power of the rebels vs. the ruler (using the anti/pro status), the ULs and possibly other factors, such as with whom the military sides, foreign support, characteristics of the ruler (is he shrewd or insane?), etc. But I think we must try to keep this as simple as possible so that players won’t feel alarmed by the prospect of usurping the ruler. There are 3 possible results: Success (the old ruler de-throned); Failure (the rebel leaders executed/exiled); and Civil War (each faction drawing on the political/economical/military strength it has, this can last several turns).




                                                      So, to summarize:





                                                          [*]Players can alter the AC, simply choosing the new AC and whether it is PAC or SAC. [*]The ACs help in keeping the state stabile (peaceful) and in running the administration. [*]Players can try to usurp the ruler. To do so they choose the class(es) involved (choosing the exact cultural elements too would be cool, but probably too hard to implement). The players don’t actually choose whether they want a bloodless Coup d’Etat or a widespread revolt, this is decided on the factions chosen, f.e. choosing only the UC/MC a Coup d’Etat is more likely, choosing the LC (with or without the ones above) will almost definitely result in a bloody revolt. [*]When the rebels have been chosen it'll take them a little time to organize, so throwing them into revolt in the same turn you chose them as ‘schemers’ will have some negative modifiers. Its best to wait 1 or 2 turns (it would be fun to give the ‘secret service’ of the ruler a chance to uncover the plot). [*]Revolts can of course still happen as explained in 1.6, they're based on the UL and will rarely target the ruler himself. Players can make large revolts try to take over the state. To do so they simply ‘order’ the revolt to target the ruler, if they succeed a new ruler is proclaimed. I think its best that revolts that overthrow the ruler and which the player did Not support will end the game for the player. Only those revolts (whether they were created by the player or not) which the player supports will allow him to continue the game.[/list][/list]

                                                           




                                                          2.2 Change political distribution




                                                          In this section we'll look at how political power (i.e. the Demographics) can change hands. Naturally all classes want to increase their power and all will jealously guard their possessions. From turn to turn only minor changes will in most cases happen, maybe 5% up or down at most. Only major events, like revolts or conquests (and serious cultural upsets, like the Reformation) can make major alterations on the Demographics. There are a lots and lots of things that can change political power distribution, and uncountable situation where different actions and reactions are available. Suffice to say it nigh on impossible to represent all this in the game. So instead we'll use a simplified arbitrary system to cover most changes. Some events/actions (usually the more drastic ones) can still affect the pol.distribution. Those who do change it immiedetly and with certainty, i.e. the changes caused by these events/actions are implemented without using the system outlined below. I have no concrete list over these events/actions at the moment, we'll probably work them out as we go along.




                                                          Note that changing political power is never a certain thing, when many factions are strifing for the same thing the outcome is never certain. Each turn we calculate for each class it willingness in grabbing more power. All the classes have basic number for this (probably little different between the classes, e.g. the UC usually has a little more interest in powerpolitics than the LC). The basic number can then be modified by several things, such as:





                                                              [*]Power setting, chosen by the player (see below). [*]If there is a (negative) difference between the actual power of the class and what it expects to have (as determined by the social model, see also 1.5 above) the class will try a bit harder to gain pol.power. [*]Difference in contribution vs. actual power will also possibly make the class try harder. [*]Any recent events/actions which have threatened or lessened the pol.power of a class will make it try harder. [*]Culture and possibly gov.type/add-ons can affect this in various ways. [*]Characters can possibly affect this. [*]Something more possibly…[/list][/list]

                                                              These modifiers are all added together and applied to the basic number. As the Demographics are province-based the calculations above are made for each province, if this proves to cumbersome we might simple make the calculations civ-wide, but apply them for each province. As there will be some random elements involved the effects should vary. After we've determined the willingness of each class to grab more power the results are entered into a formula, which spews out the exact changes made. The formula (yes you guessed it J ) is undecided at the moment. The procedure of it will probably be as follows:





                                                                  [*]First it determines how much pol.power percentage points are up for grab. This is determined by how eager the classes (in total) are in seeing changes, i.e. the higher the sum of the calculations above is, the more points are up for grab. [*]Then it decides which classes get the percentage points (the factors used in determining this, apart from a random number, include how eager the class was in grabbing more power (i.e. the same number as calculated above) and how easily the class can expect to gain more power (i.e. classes that have high pol.power to begin with and that are part of the government can more easily transfer more power to themselves). [*]The classes that lose the power is determined either at the moment the percentage point is ‘grabbed’, as outlined above, or separately, after all perc.points have been distributed. This would be more time-consuming and could mean that a class lost the same perc.point it already gained above. [*]After all calculations the results are applied. Possibly this can cause some changes in the pro/anti status and/or affect the ULs.[/list][/list]

                                                                  The power setting, mentioned above, starts at Normal, or Average, for each class. Players can change this to High or Low (there will probably be a number of settings, maybe 5 or 7 in all). This can be decided on province bases, or for the state as a whole. If the setting is above Normal the class is more eager to gain power (or the player/ruler has made some leverages for the class to gain more power), if its below Normal the class is less eager (or has more difficulties, whatever, the result is the same J ) in gaining power. The fact that players can so easily tweak this for each class isn't perhaps totally realistic, but I think it works better for gameplay. The difference between Normal and High/Low wouldn't be so drastic in any case, maybe +/- 50% at the most. Note that all these calculations are only for determining the willingness of the classes to gain More power. All classes, no matter the circumstances, will always defend what they got to the teeth. Also note that even if I’ve only talked about Demographic changes this same system will likely also be used for determining Geographic changes.







                                                                  2.3 Issue decrees




                                                                  This is the least thought out part of the model yet. The basic idea is that everything that rulers(players) can do and that is not covered in the above two chapters would go under the ‘Issue decrees’ hat.




                                                                  Here are some ideas:





                                                                      [*]Making specific offer to a class. This is to reduce the UL of the class, possibly alter the pro/anti status. Players can offer the class money or political concessions, i.e. promises to increase the pol.power of the class (this will either be handled as a immediate exchange of pol.power (PC down, the other class up), or it will give the class in question a bonus when calculating its eagerness for more power, as explained above in 2.2. One additional idea is that players can give the class more permanent and far-reaching offer. These are specific offers which can give the class as a

  • #2
    Hrafnkell:

    Congratulations, the system looks very good, and hangs together thematically. I just have a few suggestions on ways to trim the system down a bit.

    Associate classes (ACs) - can't it be done automatically by other system elements? I am having trouble seeing the big advantages of the AC system vs one where say the 'pro' component of each class would help in administration and lend power automatically. If the player then wants more UC contribution in administration he could increase the pro-govt part of the UC by giving them x% more power by decree. If this doesn't precipitate resistance or revolt by other classes, then the change occurs. But I may be missing something. Can you explain what it is...? There is still tension in a system without ACs because the player must make the tough choice of who to favor when the government gets into the low-admin zone. I think there will generally be no easy choices here.

    Player always runs coups etc... Cant be taken by surprise. (?) Why? If the player ignores festering problems for too long IMO he should be 'taken by surprise' by a coup, revolt, whatever. Probably I just misunderstand what you're saying. On Instant death when you lose a revolt there has been some discussion recently in the culture thread about 2/3 of the way down. What do you think of it? http://apolyton.net/forums/Forum21/HTML/000077.html

    If someone takes you over there is a time period where IMO your people might reestablish selves. Say if over the next two generations your people throw the conquerors out I think you should get your civ back. Of course it would have changed from the path you intended in the meantime, but that's life. As an example of this type of circumstances I'd cite the Egyptians throwing out the Hyksos, or the Chinese getting rid of the Mongols. I think you can make a good case that the cultures (and thus if we view the player as a 'guiding spirit') were largely the same after they removed the conquerors as before the conquests.

    Change political distribution... The government and group's rights determine this... Why must it evolve continuously? (I Know it evolves in the real world, but at the game level it seems it could be left static and simplify the system.) Only if the PC Lets it evolve through issuing an order to an advisor or making a decree should it do so IMO. If the PC says it stays the same it should stay the same IMO. Of course when real vs governmental power gets too far out of joint there could be a revolt... Issuing a decree should be done on an abstract (grant or removal of power) basis. I think its good to give the player some 'bedrock' to stand on. The power in his government should not drift around under him unless it is under the control of his advisor who he has empowered. Am I missing a big effect here?

    My thrust is that unless a widget in the system gives big game benefits we should probably leave it out. Your historical experience is much broader than mine, so its possible the simplifications I'm mentioning prohibit some important behavior.

    Minor points

    Unrest Level (UL) should be a more-or-less continuous scale, not a bunch of widely spaced levels IMO. The reason is that when there are large discrete levels, then if you're near the boundary between the levels, a small amount of tweaking can give a big benefit if you lower the artificial level by one step. This feature is common in Civ, and drives a lot of the micromanagement. I feel Strongly that in all our game systems, changing things by a little bit should Never result in drastic changes in results. Therefore we must avoid 'Levels' and concepts like that.

    >this is why wise(?) rulers try to keep people of different culture separate, often taken drastic measures to do so.
    I would say that one strategy rulers can follow is to segregate cultures. The other alternative is to try and slowly homogenize them. Segregating cultures is dangerous if you still have a multicultural empire when nationalism comes along

    For tags like Democracy etc one could also allow Theocratic Democracy to describe a democracy with a much higher religious content than usual. This would make it much better IMO description-wise because you would never have a theocracy in one turn crossing over the border into a democracy. The transition would be seen as Theocracy (wait a while), Theocratic Democracy (wait a while more), Democracy, which is easier to understand.

    This model takes us Two generations beyond Civ if we can pull it off. Good Job.

    -Mark
    Project Lead for The Clash of Civilizations
    A Unique civ-like game that will feature low micromanagement, great AI, and a Detailed Government model including internal power struggles. Demo 8 available Now! (go to D8 thread at top of forum).
    Check it out at the Clash Web Site and Forum right here at Apolyton!

    Comment


    • #3
      Mark:
      >
      Associate classes (ACs) ... There is still tension in a system without ACs because the player must make the tough choice of who to favor when the government gets into the low-admin zone. I think there will generally be no easy choices here.
      >

      This could work, I´ll have to think some more about it. See also below.


      [The revolt thing]
      Yeah, it was a bad choice of words. I basically meant that coups/revolts shouldn´t come like a thunder out of blue sky. As you say players always see (if they bother to check it that is) the gradual build-up, whether it´s of their own doing or not.

      >
      On Instant death when you lose a revolt there has been some discussion recently in the culture thread about 2/3 of the way down. What do you think of it?
      >
      IMO players should always be allowed to continue for as long as possible. I think revolts should almost never kick a player out of the game, although it can of course seriously screw up his situation.


      >
      Change political distribution... The government and group's rights determine this... Why must it evolve continuously? (I Know it evolves in the real world, but at the game level it seems it could be left static and simplify the system.) Only if the PC Lets it evolve through issuing an order to an advisor or making a decree should it do so IMO. If the PC says it stays the same it should stay the same IMO. Of course when real vs governmental power gets too far out of joint there could be a revolt... Issuing a decree should be done on an abstract (grant or removal of power) basis. I think its good to give the player some 'bedrock' to stand on. The power in his government should not drift around under him unless it is under the control of his advisor who he has empowered. Am I missing a big effect here?
      >
      Well, your opinion is in every way as valid as mine, I guess it just depends on personal preferences. In your way the player would have considerably more power becuase pol.power would never change unless he so chooses (and maybe in some drastic Events). But my way isn´t so far away your idea under closer scrutiny. As the formula will be the classes in power (i.e. the PC) has much better chance of increasing it´s power, so I think there is little chance of the governmental power melting away with this rule. The basic idea with this rule is to add a bit of flexibility into the pol.distribution And to have a relatively simple way for resolving all the myriad things that can alter the pol.distribution. IMO, if we remove this rule the system (for pol.changes) would be overly simple and we could run into trouble later on when we need to establish the effects of some Event or Action.

      >
      My thrust is that unless a widget in the system gives big game benefits we should probably leave it out. Your historical experience is much broader than mine, so its possible the simplifications I'm mentioning prohibit some important behavior.
      >

      I totally agree with you, as for the system I propose I readily admit that it may contain some bits that serve little or no purpose, but at this stage it´s difficult to spot them. But rest assured that if, after close analyses of the system, we discover those bits I´ll be the first to cut them out :-).

      >
      Unrest Level (UL) should be a more-or-less continuous scale, not a bunch of widely spaced levels IMO. The reason is that when there are large discrete levels, then if you're near the boundary between the levels, a small amount of tweaking can give a big benefit if you lower the artificial level by one step. This feature is common in Civ, and drives a lot of the micromanagement. I feel Strongly that in all our game systems, changing things by a little bit should Never result in drastic changes in results. Therefore we must avoid 'Levels' and concepts like that.
      >
      As I say in the model unrest will be represented by "levels, percentages, whatever". I agree with your reasoning on leaving Levels out, I just called it Unrest Level to call it something, the name means nothing.

      >
      For tags like Democracy etc one could also allow Theocratic Democracy to describe a democracy with a much higher religious content than usual. This would make it much better IMO description-wise because you would never have a theocracy in one turn crossing over the border into a democracy. The transition would be seen as Theocracy (wait a while), Theocratic Democracy (wait a while more), Democracy, which is easier to understand.
      >
      I agree with this. The reason I didn't include a list of possible government types is exactly because of this, I didn´t want to make it too narrow.

      Mark and others have pointed out that the rules regarding Associate Classes are a bit confusing and complex. I agree with this, the rules as they stand are not something I´m very proud of. The idea with the ACs is to represent the constant dilemma rulers had/have regarding class-relations. On the one hand they need assistance from other classes to run the state, on the other hand this increases the power of the allied classes and makes them a potential threat. One idea Mark had was to discard the AC and use the pro/anti status to determine the benefits the classes gave. This, however, doesn´t take the second part (the increased power of the classes) into account. Here is an idea which incorporates Mark’s idea and my concept of internal struggle. First of all, the pro/anti status is used to determine how useful the class is for the ruler (in administration and stability maintainance). Then, the relations between the ruler and each class is categorized. There are 4 groups possible (maybe a few more). These are:
      - None. The class and the ruler have no specific relations and no special rules apply. This option is the most common.
      - Joint-rule. The class has more or less equal saying in the affairs of the state. This gives the player some advantages, the class is much less a threat and it´s much easier to co-operate with it. The negative side is that players are somewhat restricted in their doings and their fellow ruling class can sometimes initiate or do something you don´t like (like go to a war or make peace). So this option is dangerous. [To choose this option the Joint-rule class must hold at least 25% of pol.power, and no less than half of the pol.power of the PC. Also, the pro-gov element must be 50% or more and at least twice as high as the anti-gov element.]
      - Allied. This is pretty much the same as the AC relations, the allied class helping out with the running of the state, although they are of course primarily self-centered. [To choose this option the Allied class must be at least 40% pro-gov and the pros are more than the antis.
      - Controlled. This mean that the class is effectively controlled by the ruler, f.e. if it´s the RC the ruler would be the head of the state religion and have total control over the Church’s affairs. The benefits are that the class poses almost no threat to the ruler. Only the RC and the MC can be controlled like this. [To choose this option the Controlled class can have no pol.power (or 5-10% at the most) and the anti-gov faction can be no larger than 10%]
      We could include more options, such as group between the None and the Allied (sort of like the SAC) and an Independant group, which meant that the ruler had very little saying in what that class does. The main question is of course, why do we need this? Well, as I´ve said before I want to represent the internal tensions found within a state and I feel that the Demographic and Anti/Pro rules doesn´t cover this adequetely. Having said that I´m not even sure that the above idea covers it :-). What do you think? Of course, the best thing probably would be to enhance the Demographic and Pro/anti rules to the point where they alone suffice to capture the internal politics thing I´m always raving about. If anyone has ideas on that they´d be greatly appreciated.




      [This message has been edited by Hrafnkell (edited June 13, 1999).]

      Comment


      • #4
        If you're only getting 10% of the taxes and goods you've levied, I'd say it's time to take names and kick butts. If you can't kick that duke's butt, then what you've got is a vassal state rather than a part of your kingdom.

        ------------------
        *a friendly note from your favorite heretic

        Comment


        • #5
          don Don:

          Well, you may have to live with it. As you know, for long stretches of history your vassal could just stick out his tongue from high on his castle ramparts, and there wouldn't be much to do about it. At least in Clash you'll know that his eventual come-uppance via cannon is on the way
          Project Lead for The Clash of Civilizations
          A Unique civ-like game that will feature low micromanagement, great AI, and a Detailed Government model including internal power struggles. Demo 8 available Now! (go to D8 thread at top of forum).
          Check it out at the Clash Web Site and Forum right here at Apolyton!

          Comment


          • #6
            Hrafnkell:

            I was thinking during my extensive driving this weekend... And I'm not sure how some details work in a feudalism-type government with a king with relatively little power. (We've spoken about it before, but not at this level) In reality there is a group of Local principals who rule essentially in their own right. This is handled in the system by geographic centralization being high in the provincial and/or local areas. So far so good.

            But the king is still issuing orders etc. in a feudal system. Its just that the dukes or whotever is in power frequently don't listen. Are the orders all issued and then implemented depending on the kings (low) level of control in each province? If the king's orders are simply carried out proportional to his control, what stops the king from saying that in Aragon, where he has 10% control, that the tax rate will be 100% knowing only 10% of it will take effect?

            Another thing I don't think the model handles yet is the re-establishment of central control after a period of low control. Generally this happens by the king re-asserting control over one geographic region after another. Thus there are really two states the king is running at the same time. A centralized state, and the old decentralized one.

            I have some ideas for ways to fix these sorts of things, but thought you might already have thought of a good way to work it. So I'll stop here for now.

            -Mark
            Project Lead for The Clash of Civilizations
            A Unique civ-like game that will feature low micromanagement, great AI, and a Detailed Government model including internal power struggles. Demo 8 available Now! (go to D8 thread at top of forum).
            Check it out at the Clash Web Site and Forum right here at Apolyton!

            Comment


            • #7
              Mark,

              I have no definate answers for your questions, so your thougths are as good as mine.

              About your first point (relative power of the king), I think that there shouldn´t be so direct connection between the power/control of the king and the things he wants to implement. My idea is that every order he (the player) sends out is valuated by the provincial/local powers, if they feel OK about them they do nothing and the order is carried out normally, but if they´re against it for one reason or another they´d stand against it. How 'efficient' this is is based on their power (both geocentrical and demographical, so there can be different reactions between provinces). And, as Manu mentioned somewhere, what they´d do depends on the order, ranging from simply discarding it or altering it to more serious protests. This could proove tricky to program, but as the 'types' of orders are fairly limited it shouldn´t be too tough. Secondly, as you point out, under Feudalism and other regimes the local lords can be very powerful. Instead of making them take a piece out of the tax-cake, I think it´s better that they taxed the area themselves. It´s probably simplest to count those taxes as 'wastage', although they indirectly help the ruler in a Feudal regime as his Feudal troops (provided by the local lords) would be more numerous. So the player can still tax the province as he sees fits with out much interferance from the local lords, although they might get unhappy if the taxes are vry high. The administration level of the state is used to determine how much of the taxes actually make it to the treasury. As stated in the gov.model the geocentric distribution can modify this, but this is not because the local authorities are hampering the tax-gathering, but rather that the weak governmental officials are simply overburdened and the state bureaucracy can´t handle it efficiently. As for the tax-gathering here is my basic intake on this: the ruler sets his tax-rate at 30%, which basically mean he can expect to collect X money. The geocentric distribution is 20% centralized. The Demographic can also affect this, but lets leave it for now. As the Tax-rate is higher than the Centralized control the player would have to spend more on administration in order to get all of X. Lets say that the administration cost is Y, then Y is modified by the difference of the tax-rate and the Centralized control times two (the actual formula is, of course) undecided, this is just for demonstration). So in the above example the player would have spend Y+20% to get the whole of X. If the tax-rate was 10% he would only have to spend Y-20% to get X.

              As for your second point (crown vs. nobles) my opinion is that we should definetly try to avoid having a 'state-within-a-state' situation. If you feel this is the case, perhaps you can comment further, as I don´t see this happening. First, as we are talking about the geocentrical rules, I envision that there is little players can do to change that directly, but, if they have high Demographical control, the centralization process speeds up automatically. So players would focus on increasing their demographical power, which, indirectly, makes the state more centralized over time. Secondly, on to the two-state syndrome :-). IMO the local powers (i.e. non-player powers) are more of an obstacle, rather than competitiors. In other words, unless through direct rebellion, they won´t question your right to rule (this is, of course, a simplification from reality). They may try to delay or even alter your orders, but they won´t make orders of their own that contradict yours. So players can expect their orders to be implemented somewhat reluctantly at times, even ignored occasionally, but they don´t have to fight tooth and nail for dominance every single turn. Rebellions may happen but in between you´re the boss. In politics the blood runs rarely, but when it runs, it flows :-). The main concern of players is not wether their orders will be implemented or not, but what effects they have on the populace.

              Hope this clarifies something (with empazises on Something :-)), let me know your thougths.

              Hope you vacation was a pleasant one.

              Comment


              • #8
                Hi Hrafnkell:

                Thanks for the reply. I think your way to handle relative power of the king/vassals is good. So will the execution of various orders be determined directly from provincial (f.e. cultural makeup of the province) and geo/demographic stats? We'd do this by some sort of simple formula I hope, because otherwise we need to keep track of Every province's individually determined quasi-random reaction to Every order, which will IMO get out of hand. For it to work this way (broken down by prov) we also would need a part of the interface to get this information back to the player.
                Instead of making them take a piece out of the tax-cake, I think it´s better that they taxed the area themselves. It´s probably simplest to count those taxes as 'wastage', although they indirectly help the ruler in a Feudal regime as his Feudal troops (provided by the local lords) would be more numerous. So the player can still tax the province as he sees fits with out much interferance from the local lords, although they might get unhappy if the taxes are vry high. The administration level of the state is used to determine how much of the taxes actually make it to the treasury.
                Actually I thought we Should have local taxes levied (only the King's share would be treated as wasted by corruption because of poor communication to the capital) and be used to outfit local military units, pay for local economic development or whatever. The amount spent on the specific areas would be determined directly by what the culture values. (Just as the people have needs and try to satisfy them in the econ system, local government would have a similar set of rules for how it spends its money) This approach would facilitate an important issue, keeping track of the level of Local military strength. A feudal king could call on this strength for the kingdom's defense under some sort of limitations as we've discussed a long time ago. But these same Local troops would potentially form into the army of a rebellious vassal if/when the king pushes them too far.

                What do you think about local taxes also being important for other governments, since the taxes would be less susceptible to 'disappearing'? Basically locally raised and spent monies are less likely IMO to be siphoned off by corrupt officials. This is simply because the monies pass through fewer sets of grasping hands. So my position is that corruption should affect money going to the centralized government the most, and local tax monies at a lower level. Of course there should be worse tax losses due to corruption the farther from the seat of government.

                On the 'state within a state' issue, I actually had been thinking 'yes', but you've convinced me that we should strive for 'no' instead. I think your rebellion-moderated way of dealing with limited power of the king is better than anything I came up with.

                BTW, my vacation and the subsequent conference were both fun, thanks for asking.

                -Mark

                [This message has been edited by Mark_Everson (edited July 18, 1999).]
                Project Lead for The Clash of Civilizations
                A Unique civ-like game that will feature low micromanagement, great AI, and a Detailed Government model including internal power struggles. Demo 8 available Now! (go to D8 thread at top of forum).
                Check it out at the Clash Web Site and Forum right here at Apolyton!

                Comment


                • #9
                  Hey men, I've been very busy these days, I'm sorry I could not take care of Clash. The fact is, that I'm getting married next saturday and it keeps me very busy, along with other stuff...
                  So I will be absent for another three weeks or so.
                  I've had other ideas these days, I will try to summ them up and report them here as soon as I can. They adress topics such as the globalization (IMO a very important phenomenon to simulate in the late game), the split of empires (fe what happened to Saint Roman-Germanic Empire after the death of Charlemagne)...
                  About what u discussed and the repartition of taxes between the lord and the local governors : IMO it depends on the type of governments. In some cases, the lord taxes the local governors only (for exemple in a feudal state), and at the mlocal level the governors take care of their citizens (by this I mean, each governor gets taxes for their citizens, but they also have to pay the bills for the investments in this province; the lord sets a tax amount he wants to get from his governors, and the governors manage the money at theit level to pay the lord; thus the lord dont have to take care of the economics in this particular province, every thing is handled at this level by the local governor. Of course, the latter may find that the tax the lord wants is too high, and take appropriate measures)

                  Ok, thats all, cya. Manu

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    The gov model is great. Having the division of power internally opens up some new combat options too! Yes, the player will have to deal with internal issues but now that power and control is no longer absolute there could be the possibility of starting revolutions and insurgencies in foriegn countries (with the advent ofcommunism, special ops, rev. war etc) it would be far better then how a spy does it in civ2. It could be a whole newstrategy (i.e. sending propraganda into an enemy nation to incite the massses, sendingrevolutionary cadres to start a rebellion, set up a counter-state to compete with the current state for control, etc.)

                    If you guys want to look into to this option let me know, I have a strategic history degree from West Point and I mainly focused on revolutions and insurgency (my thesis was Roman counterinsurgency in the Jewish war of 66 A.D.)

                    ------------------
                    "No eternal reward will forgive us now for wasting the dawn."
                    - Jim Morrison
                    Formerly known as "E" on Apolyton

                    See me at Civfanatics.com

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Manu:

                      Congratulations So that's why you let your girlfriend monopolize the computer a month ago! I'd like to hear your thoughts on globalization etc. when you get the chance. Also, we need from you your best shot at an abbreviated and simplified version of the social model to go into the first alpha version of Clash. I think we can start coding on schedule, early next month!

                      Again, I and the Clash team wish you the best on your wedding
                      Project Lead for The Clash of Civilizations
                      A Unique civ-like game that will feature low micromanagement, great AI, and a Detailed Government model including internal power struggles. Demo 8 available Now! (go to D8 thread at top of forum).
                      Check it out at the Clash Web Site and Forum right here at Apolyton!

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        E:

                        Sure, we'd like to hear your thoughts on these issues. Please do a search first of the forum first so you can put your comments in the right place. You might search on 'rebel' or 'revolt' or 'intelligence' as examples. I'm fairly sure we've discussed some of these issues before. I think they might be in Kull's diplomacy thread, Manu's Social model thread or in one of the Government threads.

                        Project Lead for The Clash of Civilizations
                        A Unique civ-like game that will feature low micromanagement, great AI, and a Detailed Government model including internal power struggles. Demo 8 available Now! (go to D8 thread at top of forum).
                        Check it out at the Clash Web Site and Forum right here at Apolyton!

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Hrafnkell, your model for the government is excellent in my opinion, but there is one thing missing for the class's.

                          Education vs. Propaganda(Ignorance)
                          Throughout history this has played a main role if not the key role in deciding the end result of government issues. If all the peasents have done is make food and give most of it to land owners, they would probably laugh at you when you tell them to revolt against the tyrants that take there food. Even if the LC has most of the power if there education goes down they could start giving it up slowly( that is whats happening in the US right now in fact ).
                          This is a VERY big factor for the class's, it should change how much power they have, and how big there UL is.

                          Examples,
                          If the Labor class is very educated, then it would very difficult to subdue there unrest with propaganda.
                          If the Labor class is very uneducated, then it would be very hard to make them revolt against a non-democratic ruler.

                          I haven't read the user interface part of the gov.model yet so it might be in there, if so sorry I have to get to sleep and wanted to post this.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Osiris:

                            thanks for the reply. I agree with you that education should play a large part in this. There is one idea in there which tackles this somewhat, that is the political awareness of the class, which determines how large the anti/pro groups of each class tend to be. Although this is scetchy at the moment (what we have is termed polarization), I think it goes a long way towards what you're suggesting.
                            As for education itself, I haven't included anything concrete on that here simply because it hasn't been defined completely yet.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              What happens in a monarchy when there is no "heir apparant?" I know usually this was settled eventually with a new ruler, but it often led to civil wars. Just liked to see what u have to say about that...

                              Also are any implimentations for an oligarchy-type government? I know as of the model there are no specific ones, but there have been several oligrarchies throughout history...also anything like a constinutional monarchy being instituted?
                              Which Love Hina Girl Are You?
                              Mitsumi Otohime
                              Oh dear! Are you even sure you answered the questions correctly?) Underneath your confused exterior, you hold fast to your certainties and seek to find the truth about the things you don't know. While you may not be brimming with confidence and energy, you are content with who you are and accepting of both your faults and the faults of others. But while those around you love you deep down, they may find your nonchalance somewhat infuriating. Try to put a bit more thought into what you are doing, and be more aware of your surroundings.

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