Announcement

**mca** · September 2, 1999, 13:52

I am available from 04 to 16 (Apolyton time) on Saturday and Sunday.

Martin
[This message has been edited by mca (edited September 02, 1999).]

**JimC** · September 3, 1999, 14:06

My ICQ no. is 15227822. I'll try and be there.

Maybe I'll just stay in bed all day.... and all week.... 'cos I finished work today :-)

Two weeks of blissful nothingness until my University term starts. My brain deserves a well earned break from damned SCADA programming.

Jim

**Blade Runner** · September 3, 1999, 15:55

Hi All,

I try to get ICQ, but my stupid sound card driver always kick out the ICQ program in the starting period. I cannot get in to the ICQ chat. (The sound card built-in.) I got back my cable modem connection today, so I can hanging around longer time than before.
Anyway. I'm in Europe, so the time different is huge. I send my opinion now, and Mark, please send the chat description to the forum, so we can follow the discussion.
Thanx

We need to produce a macro language, which easy to use, but enough powerfull to build scenarios, and control completely the game system. Maybe we can write parts of the game system with this macro language. Very easy to implement a text file reader to load values in the game system. (a little bit like the SMAC or CIVs). Maybe 1-5% of the gamers can write something with the scenario language, but almost everybody can change something in text files. (like not 5 but 8 civs, etc.)

Macro language:
1. No OOP, or any other sophisticated gadget. The average gamer can maybe produce a short rutin with Visual Basic or Access, but they dont understand C++, Java or Delphi.
2. For little programs and rutins the best to use a structured language. Easy to follow the flow of the code, and easy to understand what do the macro rutin and why.
3. We need to follow the popular languages. IMHO the most popular structured languages are: Pascal or C. I work professionaly with Delphi, so I prefer Pascal, but the C has also strong points.
4. Events (or triggers) must easy to follow for the users. My idea was to use the trigger name for the source code, and for the "main" function or procedure (method in Java).
(Read my short language description: follow the URL of "Macro language description" in Mark's beginnig post.)
Rem. If we agree to use my C-- baby, I try to produce a working tokenizer and parser ASAP. This will take a couple of weeks (2-6). All the language specialities go to this part. The another part of the interpreter (the executor) takes a few days plus. But the speed of the code is depend on the executor, so we need probably a few another weeks to produce a speedy executor. (permamnet feedback and code optimizing)

I. Program structure and macro language:
1. We need to produce the graphics and AI part of the game in Java. We need to write a speedy macro interpreter and the macro interface programs and message boxes, menus, etc. in Java too.
2. We (and this is a bigger part of the project members) can write the control and rule parts of the game in our macro language.
3. The ultimate game "constants" can go to text file(s).

I see a few advantage and one disadvantage. (Probably there is more.):

Adv:
1.Flexibile game development.
2.Half professional programers can help us easily, but they cannot touch the Java parts of the program.
3.We can detect and kill the bugs of the macro interpreter in early stages. (and not the users will send us nasty comments about the scenario maker part.)
4. The users can examine our working scenario model (The Game!). They can modify the program or write scenario(s) follow our code.

Disadv:
The game system will be slower than a 100% Java application.
(Rem: We (I) try to develop a quick interpreter. I hope the interpreter part will be enogh speedy to open the choice of use Java or C-- [my fantasy name for the macro language] for coding.)

II. Program structure and the Java bean:
I'm a Delphi programmer. I write always Delphi components for my longer applications, so I support the using of the Java beans for Clash too. (The use of the Java beans almost automaticall solve the getter setter problems too.)

Blade

PS. I think I cannot join to the ICQ chat without workong ICQ program. If somebody know a different way to join or has an older version of the ICQ program (that maybe work for me) send me a message (or the ICQ program).
Thanx

[This message has been edited by Blade Runner (edited September 03, 1999).]

**Blade Runner** · September 3, 1999, 17:42

Please use my hotmail address to send messages: gkosztolanyi@hotmail.com

Thankx

Blade

**Mark_Everson** · September 3, 1999, 18:34

Hmmmm... I had assumed everyone could do ICQ. But I think we need Blade Runner in this discussion.

How about we do the discussion here?

It would be a bit less fluid than ICQ, but we can clearly get everyone involved. Also it would leave a record that others could easily see and comment upon. And Finally BR has already given us a good overview of his position to start out the discussion.

If anyone objects, please speak up, or I'll assume we'll do it here.

I propose we start In this thread at 13:00 Saturday EST (GMT +5) Is this ok with everyone?

If that time is a show-stopper for anyone, please speak up!

I hope to see everyone there.

**Blade Runner** · September 3, 1999, 19:02

Good for me. Thankx for the possibility to join.

Blade

**Druid2** · September 3, 1999, 22:39

I'm not a Java programmer at all... but I'll try to be here anyhow. [At least so you'll have somebody to point at and laugh ]

One preliminary comment, tho:

The purpose of using a 'macro' language is: [pick one or more]
a) to make the logic accessable to the player
or
b) to allow changes "in between" releases while we're debugging
or
c) to let programmers OUTSIDE the project do add-ons later.

If (a) is among your answers, then I suggest that C or Pascal is not the right choice for a base. If you need to be a programmer to write the macro, what's the point in making it a macro? Just put it in code and do not pay the speed penalty....
We're going to have open code anyhow.. so just put all the "macro" stuff in a separate module and let the programmers roll their own.

**Mark_Everson** · September 4, 1999, 04:32

Personally I think they're all valuable but rate a > c > b. However Most of 'a' could be handled in an editor IMO.

On the 'open code' argument against a macro language being needed, I still don't think we've determined whether Clash should be completely open once development nears completion or not. However, this is not the thread to continue That discussion. If you want to talk about it go to Open Source vs Quasi-Open (what we're doing now). We only got a few votes in that thread a ways back, tho it seems to be pro-open so far in the thread. However, private messages from some who didn't contribute go the other way...

**mca** · September 4, 1999, 09:31

I'll be around, too.

Martin

**Mark_Everson** · September 4, 1999, 13:20

Post Me2

Here are some specifics on the off-line editing program capabilities that I think we need. First and foremost, is a rational way to access all the variables that the scenario designer might want to change. I think this would be best gone using an interconnected tree that allows the user control down to any level in any object.

We could use Java's reflection capability to do this fairly easily. So at the top of the tree hierarchy would be the game object (I'm using F _ Smith's proposed structure with my names on it). I will just show a single extended branch of this very big tree.

Game
|
civs; map; turnHandler; gui; io; etc.
|
Babylonians; Romans; Indians; etc.
|
AI characteristics; map (parts known of/controlled by); task forces; diplomacy; etc.
|
military aggressiveness (53); technology preference (farming 38, metallurgy 75, etc.)

Add a few logic and loop capabilities to a system like this that allows you to access anything, and you have a pretty powerful scenario design tool.

Since nobody else seems to have made it yet I'm going to step away for about 15 min. Will return...

[This message has been edited by Mark_Everson (edited September 04, 1999).]

**mca** · September 4, 1999, 13:37

(Sorry for being late, I miscalculated the time zones)

mca1:
re: me2

Such a tree-based editor will be quite useful for game and ai parameters, but I'm not quite sure how logic and loop capabilities could be incorporated.

The main use for control structures is in a "triggered event" system, I suppose?

Martin
[This message has been edited by mca (edited September 04, 1999).]

**Blade Runner** · September 4, 1999, 13:48

Post Bl1
Re: Me2

Hi,

I'm here.

This data can go to the text files. I think we need something more powerfull tool. It is possible to write loops and control stuff in the game system, but I think that will be more difficult to implement than a macro language with interpreter.
I.E.:

How can we produce a scenario editor modul to implement the next rutin without language?

If ((CivNumber > 5) and (CivNam = Badguys))
{
X = 1;
while MapSquare[X,15] <> CitySquare do
{
Destroy(MapSquare[X,15]);
X++;
}
};

(This is a user defined weapon, which destroy everything in the map row until find a city.)

Blade
[This message has been edited by Blade Runner (edited September 04, 1999).]

**Mark_Everson** · September 4, 1999, 13:50

Warning: If you post the same minute as someone else it seems to not take your post! I just mention it so everyone is aware of that. It is easy enough if it doesn't show up in the thread after the post to use the browser's 'back' button to go back and re-post...

Post me3:
re-mca 1

Triggering is is one important use of logic and loops. Another would be simple tweaking of the AI for the general game. For instance, if someone thinks our AI is too timid under a certain set of circumstances, they could cause the AIs military aggressiveness for a civ presented with those circumstances to be increased. I'm sure there are also other uses we could come up with.

re-BR1:
Yes that's true. As I said, we probably need a macro language to save stuff from the off-line editor program anyway. I just think we can cover 99+% of what people want to do with an editor.

[This message has been edited by Mark_Everson (edited September 04, 1999).]

**Blade Runner** · September 4, 1999, 14:04

Bl2
Re: Me3

Sure. 90% - 10% rule:
The users 90% use the 10% of the program, 10% use the 90% of the program, but nobody know which is the unnecesary 10% of the system. The program needs a powerful scenario editor, text files with game constants and a full featured macro language for us and for the power users.

Blade

Announcement

ICQ Meeting on macro/scenario stuff vs. code structure; JimC, Blade Runner, you in?

ICQ Meeting on macro/scenario stuff vs. code structure; JimC, Blade Runner, you in?

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