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Requesting Input on Design of The Clash of Civilizations

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  • Requesting Input on Design of The Clash of Civilizations

    I have seen a lot of good comments and criticisms of Civ games since I've been around at Apolyton. I'm in a project for a civ-like game (but Not a clone) called The Clash of Civilizations. We already have about ten designers, programmers and artists at latest count, although a few wear two hats . All of us are part time, probably 10-20 hrs/ week. If you are interested, I would like to hear whay you think about the design as it stands so far. Suggestions for your own thoughts on design / features are also welcome.

    One of our Main goals, in every aspect of the project, is to require less micro-management from the player (player can still do it, but its not mandatory). One benefit of this would be the 4-hr game where you'd go from BC to the present making only broad decisions. These might vary from player to player, but would be something like: your civ's diplomatic stance with respect to your neighbors, direction you want to try to move the economy, culture and government in, and overall military strategy. If we can make it so that this game is possible, and so that the player can "drill down" into any area to a fairly fine level of control, we'll have succeeded.

    Clash has an emphasis on better handling of the government and intra-civ political effects. Another distinction of Clash is to include some effects of culture, ethnicity and their ramifications. And, of course, better AI than the complete junk (IMO) the commercial games are giving us for adversaries.

    If you're interested check out the main site at:

    Our Forum for suggestions and working out a design spec is Right Here. However, there is a lot of stuff at the Old main BB, which is at:

    There are other sub-BBs accessable from there.

    We are hoping to finish the overall design by the end of May. There are a lot of ways that good thoughts in the design area could
    seriously influence the final game at this point.

    This is your chance to comment on a civ-like game to someone who will Really Listen

    Note: I have already looked over virtually all of the old "Civ3" or early CTP requests for features, so there's no need to duplicate them here. For people who aren't familiar with Apolyton, there are a Lot of good ideas for changes in civ-like games in the other forums I've mentioned. If you look at posts for the last year you'll see a Lot of interesting suggestions.

    Mark Everson

    [This message has been edited by Mark_Everson (edited May 02, 1999).]
    Project Lead for The Clash of Civilizations
    A Unique civ-like game that will feature low micromanagement, great AI, and a Detailed Government model including internal power struggles. Demo 8 available Now! (go to D8 thread at top of forum).
    Check it out at the Clash Web Site and Forum right here at Apolyton!

  • #2
    This is a SPAM Post just to keep this thread on the 10-day radar screen. We now return you to your regularly scheduled thread...

    Project Lead for The Clash of Civilizations
    A Unique civ-like game that will feature low micromanagement, great AI, and a Detailed Government model including internal power struggles. Demo 8 available Now! (go to D8 thread at top of forum).
    Check it out at the Clash Web Site and Forum right here at Apolyton!


    • #3
      The phrase is -- "Bump!"

      When you want to bring a thread back up to the top of the 'recent' list, just post "Bump!".


      • #4
        I hope this is the right topic to place my subject, if not please forgive me. On the old BB I made the promise to elaborate upon my ideas about intelligence. It took a while, but now I am able to present a sketch.

        My motivation is the bad implementation of intelligence in civ like games (with the exception of Master of Orion). At least that's my point of view.
        'My' intelligence model would reduce micromanagement and add some new elements to strategic gameplay. To be honest, 'my' intelligence model is a conglomerate of what I've read so far, seen in other games and some ideas of my own.

        No spies?
        There won't be spy units visible on the map. Every civilization has an intelligence agency which must be funded from treasury. It is divided into internal security (isec) and departments for each civ. The player can decide which departments get certain amounts of money. Here is an example how it works:
        Imagine you are the Romans and you have 100 CC to spend every turn. Then there are the Carthaginians and Macedonians, too. Of course you want to know about their plans. You decide to put 50 CC into isec and because of some special reason you give 30 CC to the Carthaginian department and 20 CC to the Macedonian department.
        That's the way it works in Master of Orion, nothing new so far.

        What does intelligence do with your money?
        After adjusting the fundings the player need not build any spies. They are hired by the intelligence agency. The maximum number of spies in each department including isec depends on the funding. Spy activities grow slowly so there has to be a certain time before the maximum number of spies is reached. Losses should also be taken into account. Once a spy network (at least one spy, numbers are abstract) has been established in a foreign civ or as isec the spies will send their reports to the capital.
        Also not very innovative, but let's see.

        Establishing spy networks and reports
        Spies can always get caught or killed by enemy agents. So while operating in a foreign civ the enemy isec has a chance of catching/killing each spy. This chance must be calculated based on the number of spies in isec. An isec agent can also be 'removed' by enemy spies operating in his country.
        The following list contains the information that may be obtained by spy reports. It is not complete.

        Reports on foreign countries

        [*]tech status
      • [*]demographics[*]happiness of population[*]whereabouts of army groups[*]planned movement of army groups[*]locations of important weapon factories[*]diplomatic plans

        Reports on internal security

        [*]terrorism[*]detected operations of enemy spies[*]loyalty of governors[*]danger of civil war or revolution

        An idea of Mark is that the information you get might be corrupted by enemy intelligence. I support his idea. And in addition to that I think that information should almost be a bit out of date depending on the number of spies and the distance the news have to travel. Some small inaccuracies are also inherent in such reports. Remember the bombardment of the Chinese embassy in Belgrade these days!

        Special operations!
        Having all this information about the opponents is very nice, but who cares? Therefore special operations are a must but they should be expensive and rare. That means the player has to pay extra money for the extra action. And it will take time so enemy isec can torpedize it.
        Perhaps it would be fun and less frustrating having more results than success or failure.
        Here's the -of course uncomplete- list with explanations and possible outcomes:

        Steal technology

        Stealing the technology only makes it cheaper to research by yourself. A minor success results in a marginal cost reduction. Corrupted data might even slow down research on the stolen subject.

        Incite revolution

        If one class of the opponent's society is unhappy spies provide them with weapons so that they can revolt properly. The success determines the military strength of the revolutionaries. Perhaps there will only be a period of terrorism. An alternative would be the support of separatist province leaders which would cause a declaration of independence.

        Fund guerillas

        Support one side in a civil war. The enemy isec might get the money if you try to help the opposition. Supply guerillas and partisans in territories lost to the enemy in a war. A major success could be the withdrawal of enemey forces caused by the destruction of their supply lines.

        Bribe governor

        This results in more accurate and up to date information about the civilization. Slight chance that the governor is prepared by isec. Then all data will be corrupt.

        Infiltrate enemy intelligence

        Get all their spy reports until isec finds out.

        The only thing the player has to do is to choose a special op and perhaps decide how much money to spend. The program calculates the degree of success or failure according to number of spies, operation's difficulty, chance of corruption and money spent.

        That's all for today. Please respond to this post because I would like to hear if this model might be fun or not.
        Harun aka Stefan

        [This message has been edited by Harun ar Rashid (edited May 13, 1999).]


      • #5
        I again will point towards Pax Imperia because for the most part it's diplomacy was excellent. The major downfall was you never "spoke" to a representative of the other nations-which made it feel like you were only talking to the computer.
        I'm consitently stupid- Japher
        I think that opinion in the United States is decidedly different from the rest of the world because we have a free press -- by free, I mean a virgorously presented right wing point of view on the air and available to all.- Ned


        • #6
          Harun ar Rashid:

          I think this is an excellent draft of where to go on intelligence aspects of the game. Why don't you go ahead and start it as a thread in its own rite? I will hold off detailed comments till then, because I'm afraid your good ideas will get lost in this "generic" thread. My only quibble is that you should call the thread "intelligence / espionage" or something so people know what kind of intelligence you're talking about .


          So what specifically went on in Pax Imperia diplomacy / intelligence? Sorry I can't follow up and check it out, but I'm already spread too thin...

          Project Lead for The Clash of Civilizations
          A Unique civ-like game that will feature low micromanagement, great AI, and a Detailed Government model including internal power struggles. Demo 8 available Now! (go to D8 thread at top of forum).
          Check it out at the Clash Web Site and Forum right here at Apolyton!


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