Starting a New Project vs. Joining an Existing One

[Nebula]

Solo'ing is fun and rewarding I think.

Also only yourself to blame if the project dies

[Mark_Everson]

Well, with yet another alt civs project seeming to be brewing ("Catapult" is the one I'm referring to this time) I thought I would run this up one more time. MrBaggins, if you get the chance, please read the article and consider teaming up with an already-existing project. Seems to me nothing in your manifesto could not be added to an existing project on alt civs, thereby making it richer. Of course very significant effort would be involved, but nothing like making a game from scratch.

Dale: And are you going to stick with Empire and refine it to the point where it has lots of replay value, or is it mostly a vehicle to get you a job in the gaming industry? I submit that if its the latter the gaming community will get little out of it that is worth playing more than a few times. I do hope you stick with it since it looks like something that could evolve into a fun game!

Originally posted by Nebula
Solo'ing is fun and rewarding I think.

Also only yourself to blame if the project dies

That's great. But my point is that nothing of value for the community is generally left after such projects. If the same effort were spent on FreeCiv or another project with some mass the contribution would live on after the individual loses interest.

Dale and Nebula, each of you have had previous projects that you put a lot of work into, that now are discarded. (I realize there has probably been significant code re-use in some cases.) Frankly I expect your current efforts to have been similarly abandoned a year from now. It is a shame, because you are both very productive people with good ideas. I don't have anything constructive to say about how to change this given your goals, so I'll just shut up now. . .

[MrBaggins]

I do get your point and your urging, and would agree with you if I were looking to implement a different game idea rather than an entirely new way to construct a game.

If I joined, say, Clash... do you imagine it being a popular and viable voice... saying 'rip it all out and start over'?

The basic premise of any project could stay, but almost any implementation would need to be changed, from monolithic, to Game Shell/Game logic.

Unless someone is brave enough to step up to the plate and go with a completely modifiable Civ game, its not going to evolve on its own, or get commercially developed (it would be commercial suicide to develop the civ that could be altered to fit your tastes.)

Bolting on modification possibility will always make for a limiting excercise. It struck me that the only way that you could have a game that could be truely flexible, would be if the actual game logic that you produced, would be transparent. There will be no 'black box' except for, maybe AI.

I am not a development masochist. I'm also experienced enough to know this is a massive project. My motivation is that this is a project that will ultimately be uniquely useful and that its probably not getting developed any other way.

MrBaggins

[Mark_Everson]

Well MrBaggins, I guess in my previous readings of your posts I didn't get just how radically different your desire is to make this game. But I have to say that I think a good chance at a Very flexible civ-type game, what you describe as bolt-on flexibility, would be more valuable than a likely-vaporware shell to be filled in at date TBD.

Please don't take my comments personally since I have no knowledge of your skills, drive, etc. I am just basing my assumption on the track record of such projects, and the very ambitious scope of yours. The "labor of love" only lasts as long as the love does, and your ardor may well fade in the amount of time it will realistically take to complete your task.

And because of your concept's implementation strategy you won't even get any positive feedback until rather late in the development. Sometimes the only thing that has kept me going in Clash it to see all the work pay off in something tangible that makes the game more fun.

Originally posted by MrBaggins
a completely modifiable Civ game

Such a thing does not and will never exist, except perhaps as a high-level computer programming language. There are only levels of more-flexible or less-flexible. No matter how flexible you make your shell, people will want stuff beyond its capabilities. If your response is "we can put it in the shell" mine is then "you can also program the possibility into a conventional game!"

Of course its your goal and resources so my thoughts are basically irrelevant . I've just got to try my arguments out on each new group in the hopes that a few will be convinced and improve the critical mass in alt civs that extra little bit. . .

I wish you the best of luck!

[Dale]

Originally posted by Mark_Everson
Dale: And are you going to stick with Empire and refine it to the point where it has lots of replay value, or is it mostly a vehicle to get you a job in the gaming industry? I submit that if its the latter the gaming community will get little out of it that is worth playing more than a few times. I do hope you stick with it since it looks like something that could evolve into a fun game!

Short answer: Yep. Long answer: My golden goal for Empire has always and will remain to be to use it as my centrepiece in my folio to get a game-programming job. However, at the point where it's honestly called a game an evaluation will be done to see if it's viable as a "game of substance". I recognise the difference between the state of using it as a folio piece and using it as a "Alt-Civ game". It's a big difference. However, my commitment will remain the same to Empire after that point. No-ones ever going to say "no" to some money if we get this thing to shareware standard. Besides, my new house will be completely finished on friday with settlement, and I'd like a few extra bucks to put on the mortgage.

Dale and Nebula, each of you have had previous projects that you put a lot of work into, that now are discarded. (I realize there has probably been significant code re-use in some cases.) Frankly I expect your current efforts to have been similarly abandoned a year from now. It is a shame, because you are both very productive people with good ideas. I don't have anything constructive to say about how to change this given your goals, so I'll just shut up now. . .

Mark, I do understand and appreciate your efforts for the Alt-Civ community. There can be a million projects started and dropped at some point, but still no games to play. I'm sure you can see our point from your experience with Clash, that at some point you pass the point of no return, and the project goes from "something to do" to "a labour of love". We could almost throw your arguement back at you and say why not join our projects? A talented designer is hard to find.

On the other coin, I want to program. I know C++, I do not know java. Cross off Clash for me. I don't like Civ2 for many reasons, cross off FreeCiv for me. I'm a historian not a futurian, cross of Stellar Polaris. I can't see magic as a viable idea in Civ, cross of Candle'Bre. That doesn't leave too much.

That's why I started Empire, and will finish Empire. I believe I've shown my commitment level to a "labour of love" by my additions to the CTP2 community. I have more of a commitment level to Empire than I do to CTP2's Apolyton Pack. That's why I don't join another game.

[LDiCesare]

I know C++, I do not know java. Cross off Clash for me. I don't like Civ2 for many reasons, cross off FreeCiv for me. I'm a historian not a futurian, cross of Stellar Polaris. I can't see magic as a viable idea in Civ, cross of Candle'Bre. That doesn't leave too much

Crossing clash for java is not a good reason. C++ is harder than java and java has been made partly as simpler C++.
I won't add anything, since it is mostly Mark's case anyway.

[Mark_Everson]

Hey Dale. I didn't mean to imply that you should do something other than Empire. . . for one thing it is fairly far along! It is the people who have no project firmly established yet that are the target of this thread. But its good to hear of your committment to Empire.

Originally posted by Dale
We could almost throw your arguement back at you and say why not join our projects? A talented designer is hard to find.

I don't quite understand what you mean. . . but anyway there's too much emotional equity in Clash. But as I've said before, if I were starting afresh I would join a project rather than start something new. Of course its easy to say, but I think its honestly true.

On the other coin, I want to program. I know C++, I do not know java. Cross off Clash for me.

I can certainly understand wanting to stick with a particular language, especially the one you're experienced with. Laurent, why is that hard for you to take? Seems normal to me, although I'm obviously not a major programmer. If I'd been experienced with C++ I probably would have gone that way for Clash despite the advantages I perceive in Java.

That's why I started Empire, and will finish Empire. I believe I've shown my commitment level to a "labour of love" by my additions to the CTP2 community. I have more of a commitment level to Empire than I do to CTP2's Apolyton Pack. That's why I don't join another game.

Glad to hear of your committment! Best of luck with Empire! I'm not glad you needed to strike out on your own, for the reasons I've cited. But hey, if that's what works for you its what you've got to go for. And you've at least built a functional team. I'd love to get an dedicated artist like hex into Clash. If someone comes along that you can't use, please point them our way !

[MrBaggins]

Originally posted by Mark_Everson
Well MrBaggins, I guess in my previous readings of your posts I didn't get just how radically different your desire is to make this game. But I have to say that I think a good chance at a Very flexible civ-type game, what you describe as bolt-on flexibility, would be more valuable than a likely-vaporware shell to be filled in at date TBD.

Please don't take my comments personally since I have no knowledge of your skills, drive, etc. I am just basing my assumption on the track record of such projects, and the very ambitious scope of yours. The "labor of love" only lasts as long as the love does, and your ardor may well fade in the amount of time it will realistically take to complete your task.

And because of your concept's implementation strategy you won't even get any positive feedback until rather late in the development. Sometimes the only thing that has kept me going in Clash it to see all the work pay off in something tangible that makes the game more fun.



Such a thing does not and will never exist, except perhaps as a high-level computer programming language. There are only levels of more-flexible or less-flexible. No matter how flexible you make your shell, people will want stuff beyond its capabilities. If your response is "we can put it in the shell" mine is then "you can also program the possibility into a conventional game!"

Of course its your goal and resources so my thoughts are basically irrelevant . I've just got to try my arguments out on each new group in the hopes that a few will be convinced and improve the critical mass in alt civs that extra little bit. . .

I wish you the best of luck!

I understand that you have an agenda in saying this all... additional projects dilute the talent pool. New coders entering the talent pool entering a project in progress with a likelihood of success, actually increase that projects chance of success still further.

Most new projects fail because ultimately, the project lead is overly ambitious, not skilled or experienced enough, or simply runs out of desire to do tedious implementation... or their early design choices force them into a difficult to implement situation...

And there is a lack of backup, due to the limited pool of free help.

I've done complex design and implementation before... not for a game... admittedly... but still... the process is the same. I understand the scope of this project. The actual shell itself is managable to me... particularly with the new directx libraries.

My specialty is data modelling. In most instances I can tell how a situation will be modelled, just from prior experience. I know the pitfalls of certain modelling choices, and how performance and scaling will be effected. I can usually predict what data will need to be partitioned at the start of a project. Its just something that comes from experience.

I'm not a starry-eyed Civ player, who, disappointed he didn't get his idea implemented in whatever commercial game, decided to start his development career by writing a complex game including AI.

As far as positive feedback, I already have a directx map displayed. Its the starting point but everything I do from here will have some amount of positive feedback, even if they are just interface elements.

Saying that something is likely to be vaporware without knowing the situation, is frankly, presumptuous.

I wouldn't be interested in a compromise. I spend my time as I choose, and I wouldn't choose to spend it on a bolt-on solution to an existing project. I wouldn't be motivated on another team, and I wouldn't be fulfilled.

Regarding the completely modifiable statement: There are two defined requirements, in the game design brief: it uses an isometric tiled map. you place sprite elements on the map.

Its true that someone could wish to make a game beyond these elements. They might wish to use a hex map... or no 'tiles' at all. They might wish to have 3d models.

The shell would not help them, then, and 'Catapult' would not be for them... unless they would be prepared to write DLL's... but they might be better off designing their own game engine from scratch.

Other than that... the shell helps them... and they can alter the transparent game logic in whatever manner they choose... without the entry requirement of knowing an OO language... which is a pretty standard programming structure of these projects, AND figuring out how somebody did something, and how it could be changed. If they do know a compilable language... and wanted to extend their game in extrordinary ways, and call a custom writen DLL.. thats accomodated.

There is a big gulf between writing your own game or altering source code, and changing a 'designed to be flexibly modified' macro language definition. Its just not as simple as you say, as "you can also program the possibility into a conventional game!".

The game structure... as I'm defining it... will be able to emulate Civ2, SMAC, CtP, CtP2 and Civ3, maybe Clash too.

I'm not at a point of deciding the game logic yet... although there will likely be a cherry-picked mix.

I understand your arguement. I hear your concern. I also know that this isn't about needing anyones approval.

Thanks for the encouragement... and I'd wish you every success in your project.

MrBaggins

[Mark_Everson]

Hi MrBaggins, thanks for the detailed reply.

Originally posted by MrBaggins
I understand that you have an agenda in saying this all...

You bet!

Most new projects fail because ultimately, the project lead is overly ambitious, not skilled or experienced enough, or simply runs out of desire to do tedious implementation... or their early design choices force them into a difficult to implement situation...

And there is a lack of backup, due to the limited pool of free help.

I think the two factors are fairly balanced, with perhaps the latter being more important. If I thought it was primarily the former, I wouldn't go to all the effort of annoying people who are trying to start new projects. . . on the off chance I can change their minds.

I'm not a starry-eyed Civ player, who, disappointed he didn't get his idea implemented in whatever commercial game, decided to start his development career by writing a complex game including AI.

Actually, I was when I started Clash! But nobody was making a game I really wanted to play. . .

I'd done some technical coding but nothing really big. I made a big mess of the code I did myself, although it was functional. We basically scrapped the code I did by myself after demo 4! I did get a lot better after that.

So you're way ahead of me!

Saying that something is likely to be vaporware without knowing the situation, is frankly, presumptuous.

I did say I was basing the judgement on general experience observing civ-type game projects rather than your personal skills, etc. You can remind me of my presumption when you succeed . Till then I am unrepentant. Of course hearing your background does give some hope. (presumption strikes again!)

Regarding the completely modifiable statement: There are two defined requirements, in the game design brief: it uses an isometric tiled map. you place sprite elements on the map.

I don't see how you can possibly do it with that few limiting assumptions and yet have it be significantly simpler than a programming language. (This is not meant to be a challenge to produce details now! I don't have time to discuss them anyway. . .)

The game structure... as I'm defining it... will be able to emulate Civ2, SMAC, CtP, CtP2 and Civ3, maybe Clash too.

More power to you if you can do it!

I'd discuss this more, but I've got Clash tasks to do, so I'll just have to sit back and see what happens. Again, good luck!

[Dale]

LDiCesare:

I didn't mean to degrade Clash at all by my statement of crossing it off. What I was saying is that I want to stay within my language of choice, C++. I have done no java coding, and granted it may be like Visual Basic and Visual C++ and therefore easy to pickup, I know C++ well. In the time it would take me to pickup java and understand what the existing code was doing, I could have a C++ skeleton of a game up and running. So no insult to Clash intended, just preference.

Mark:

Hey Dale. I didn't mean to imply that you should do something other than Empire. . . for one thing it is fairly far along! It is the people who have no project firmly established yet that are the target of this thread. But its good to hear of your committment to Empire.

To this I actually agree with you. If it's one person coming in with a new project idea, it would be better for that person to tack themselves to an existing project if their ideas fit. Hey, if nothing else, the existing project would benefit from fresh ideas. But when it's a team of people starting a new project idea (like what happened with Stella Polaris and Candle'Bre), then I'd be more inclined to keep an eye on it and wish them luck. And yes, I know this goes against what I did. But I have a more personal reason for branching alone at this point.

I don't quite understand what you mean. . . but anyway there's too much emotional equity in Clash.

Like I mentioned, you passed the point of no return, when an idea becomes a labour of love. I'm passed it too.

Glad to hear of your committment! Best of luck with Empire! I'm not glad you needed to strike out on your own, for the reasons I've cited. But hey, if that's what works for you its what you've got to go for. And you've at least built a functional team. I'd love to get an dedicated artist like hex into Clash. If someone comes along that you can't use, please point them our way !

Thanks for the encouragement. You know I'll be uploading a number of builds for testing purposes and discussion, so you'll be able to see how I go. As for Hex, he's brilliant with those graphics. And a perfectionist too. We're currently looking at revamping a lot of the screens....... for about the 4th time. But each time it gets better.

And yes, I'll mention Clash if anyone offers services. However, like any project there's lots of tester offers, but not enough of the others.

MrBaggins:

Good luck with your project! All I can suggest is if you do go ahead with the project (which it looks like you will), make sure it's a solid design on paper (the mind doesn't count as I found out in my first attempt at an Alt-Civ), and get regular demos out. People get a little frustrated and drift away if they don't see their efforts in action regularly. Good luck mate.

[LDiCesare]

Laurent, why is that hard for you to take? Seems normal to me, although I'm obviously not a major programmer. If I'd been experienced with C++ I probably would have gone that way for Clash despite the advantages I perceive in Java.

I just ment that learning java is almost a no-brainer when you know C++. I also developped a dislike for C++ because of a lot of little features in it that people at work tend to use which only make the code less reliable, harder to maintain, etc. I believe that C is actually better as an OO language than C++, because you can manage better encapsulation of objects than C++ 'private' keyword in public header files allows to. It is easier in java to have good code than in C++. So if you can code well in C++, it means you are a good coder, whereas you don't need that much skill to code well in java.

[hexagonian]

Originally posted by Dale
As for Hex, he's brilliant with those graphics. And a perfectionist too. We're currently looking at revamping a lot of the screens....... for about the 4th time. But each time it gets better.

Just wait Dale, I'll probably revamp everything about 6 more times...

Actually, what blows me away is that Dale approached me about the project at the beginning of the year. In little more than a month, he had a semi-working model of the game up and running. (yeah, we still need an AI, but many of the features that are taken for granted in a game are already in place.)

The way I look at it is I get the easy job - I don't have to worry about tracking down coding bugs. All I need to do is make the game pretty...though there is no denying that it does take time to get the graphic and interface elements right

[Barley]

Hi guys.

I'll apologise in advance as I have not read all the previous posts so if its already been raised (sorry).

Ok, there are a lot of people here with fantastic skills, imagination, dedication etc. If you look further afield at Poly there are 000's of hardcore games, many of which are dissapointed with the way maintream game development is progressing. I remember the idea's we generated during the development of Civ3, the in-depth discussions and analysis.

It seems to me that we all have a common goal though through lack of ownership or whatever, motivated individuals are pulling in different directions and to coin a few phrases there are 'to many chiefs' or 'to many in offense'

Can we look at setting up a community of interest? In which a Project Manager and other key responsiblities e.g. Marketing, Testing, Development etc are coordinated by specific individuals. The goal of which would be to design and publish a ground breaking Civ type game.

The ideas and various area's of expertise as well as the skills and contacts are out there within the Poly community, it just needs to be harnessed and people motivated to participate. There would be a Project Plan, milestones etc. We just need to pull in the same direction an WE CAN DO IT.

How can we take this forward, what do we need?

Mark_Everson - can you investigate?

[Mark_Everson]

Originally posted by Barley
How can we take this forward, what do we need?

Mark_Everson - can you investigate?

Barley, I can't even get new people that show up to join existing projects rather than starting completely new ones! How could I possibly make your dream reality? The community unfortunately has serious centrifugal tendencies and there ain't much that can be done about it IMO. If you want to see something happen join an existing project and work towards making it achieve the needed critical mass.

[Locutus]

Uhm, Barley, what you're describing sounds to me like *exactly* what Clash, FreeCiv, Candle'Bre, Stella Polaris, etc are all about

The reason why there are so many Alt. Civ projects in the first place is that we all have very different ideas on what exactly that ground breaking Civ game should look like. The reason why so few people are working on them is because 99% of the community is here to play games, not to take up the huge undertaking of designing them from scratch (and who could hold that against them?)