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  • Manifest Destiny - Continued Interest?

    Hello everyone,

    How do I even write this post? Let's see....

    I'm disturbed. Well, okay, that's a bit of a given. I'm concerned. Is that better?

    Since GG&S left us for their own forum, MD has had the Alt. civ. forum more or less to itself. And hey, that's kind of cool. I have never sought our own forum here at Apolyton because MD has its own forum on the newsgroups, and I didn't really see the need. While it's nice to be able to check in here, I didn't want to be greedy and go for two MD groups. I was content with sharing a forum here. But it just sort of turned out that we ended up with this forum for our own (for now), and I'm certainly not complaining.

    But here's the thing. With a few exceptions, I'm pretty much the only one posting here. Hmmmm.

    MD has always had two groups of supporters. On one side are the 4X turn based space exploration strat gamers (as represented by the Stars!, Space Empires, and MOO people) and on the other were the 4X turn based world exploration gamers (Civ, AC, CTP, etc). The latter were represented by y'all here at Aployton. And rarely would the two mix .

    At one point, MD had a lot of support from the gang here at Apolyton. Far more than the space exploration gang. And to me that makes sense. MD is a turn based conquer the world sort of strategy game, and I would expect this game to be more in line with your tastes than with the spacer's tastes.

    But oddly, as progress on the game has moved forward, the reverse seems to have become true. Our newsgroup forum is dominated by Stars! and Space Empires players. MD has recently moved into Alpha stage, which is to say, there is now a playable, if incomplete, version in circulation. And every single one of our Alpha players come from the spacer group. There's not a Civver to be seen on our game worlds.

    Now, don't get me wrong. I love those guys. They are an amazing group, and have always been strong and vocal supporters of this project. MD will be finished for them if for no other reason.

    But I'm wondering what is going on with the Civ group. Is it possible we've taken a turn that disturbes Civvers to the point where they are no longer interested? Or perhaps has it not reached a level of completion or sophistication which Civvers would accept?

    Contrary to what it may sound like in the above paragraphs, I don't mean this to be a petulant kind of "hey, pay attention to me!" kind of post. There is a reason for me writing this.

    I'm the lead programmer for the project. In fact, if truth be told, I'm the only programmer for the project. What an entire team of programmers do, I must do on my own, and I'm generally expected to do it in about the same amount of time. In addition, I'm the spokesperson for the game, answering all mail and forum posts, putting out the word, etc. As I think you can imagine, by time is stretched very thinly, and is therefore quite valuable.

    I have never minded writing about the game or coding or any number of things. For anyone who has known (or read) me for any length of time, they know I am quite verbose (probably overly so ). But if there is no one reading these posts I am making, then I am wasting my time, time which could be better spent working on code. I really don't mind writing updates to the release notes or whatever, but I don't want to do it if it's a waste of effort.

    So we come to the question: Is anyone reading? If you are reading, are you interested in patch updates? Do you want more personable information (like we do on the newsgroup forum)? Do you not even care? Does MD to you mean Medical Doctor? If you are a lurker and you want to see updates continue, now is the time to break your silence! At least mail me personally, if you don't want to post here. Otherwise I will assume no one here is looking, and will quietly drop out of this forum.

    If you do read, and you are interested, why are you not playing? Does the PBEM format bug you? Are you waiting for single player mode to be finished? Perhaps you think combat is necessary before starting a game? I've asked this before, but let me emphasize, what needs to be done to make this game playable for you? Criticize the game, and us for that matter! Go ahead. I can take it, really. I look for it. In fact, I need it to know how to prioritize my coding time. We have one person on our newsgroup forum who is brutally honest, and, while he can be harsh, he is one of my favorite posters, because from him if no one else I can always know what the game needs to increase its playability.

    Hope to hear from ya.

    Ron
    Manifest Destiny - The Race For World Domination
    -Playable Alpha now available!
    http://www.rjcyberware.com

  • #2
    I thought MD means Minions of Devil
    What, its not an obscure sect?? It is a game??

    Just kidding.
    Amazing progress! I will certainly download & try it out.

    Comment


    • #3
      And about the forums, I personaly do newsgroups alot and we have a mailing list which is ok too, but people are less aware of these!

      For example, alt.games.civ2 exists but has much less traffic then Civ2 sections here. Why?

      1. People don't know how to "Use" Usenet. Fact.
      2. Web based discussions are more readable. Well, I like to read them
      3. Mail/News clients are less spread then browsers, so you can not write replies via a public terminal.

      Comment


      • #4
        Minions of Devil?!? Drats, our secret is out. I must now kill you all

        Vet, you're probably right about people not being quite as familiar with how to use Usegroups as they would be with a web based forum. They should learn.

        I personally like newsgroup forums better. I think it's the tree views that make them easier for me. Much more organized. You can tell at a glance what the poster is responding to, rather than having all new messages at the bottom and trying to figure it out from context, ya know?

        But that's just me.

        Ron
        Manifest Destiny - The Race For World Domination
        -Playable Alpha now available!
        http://www.rjcyberware.com

        Comment


        • #5
          it might help if you linked to this forum from your discussion page on your site

          Comment


          • #6
            Hi Ron:

            I always have good intentions to check out MD in more detail, but I just don't have the time! (I suspect you understand why.) I will certainly be more likely to do something about it as MD gets further along.

            Best Wishes,

            Mark
            Project Lead for The Clash of Civilizations
            A Unique civ-like game that will feature low micromanagement, great AI, and a Detailed Government model including internal power struggles. Demo 8 available Now! (go to D8 thread at top of forum).
            Check it out at the Clash Web Site and Forum right here at Apolyton!

            Comment


            • #7
              Hello Ron & everyone else...

              I found this topic suprising.

              Perhaps you should read your own web-site:
              from http://www.rjcyberware.com/md/features.html

              "Things you probably won't see in Manifest Destiny (The Feature Pit)
              Treasure Huts.
              Wonders (this is not Civilization!)."

              I wonder why "civers" aren't super-interested in your game when you blaspheme...

              Seriously tho. I haven't played the game. It looks really cool, but I would suggest that since space empires 4 just came out and there hasn't been a "real" civ game (oooh!) released in half-a-decade, maybe turn-based ancient history type games just don't hold the appeal they once did. And perhaps the crowd that likes civ aren't as likely to use USENET or whatever - heck, I don't use it, or newsgroups (which I also don't "do").

              Just some ideas...

              Good luck with your game! I promise I won't steal too many of your ideas...

              Steve
              why isn't this workeing

              Comment


              • #8
                Mark, I haven't the slightest idea why you don't have time

                quote:

                Originally posted by 2e@2e.org on 01-24-2001 10:53 PM
                "Things you probably won't see in Manifest Destiny (The Feature Pit)
                Treasure Huts.
                Wonders (this is not Civilization!)."
                I wonder why "civers" aren't super-interested in your game when you blaspheme...



                Hehe. Those two items went into the feature pit for exactly the reason I listed. We are not, nor have we ever, made any attempt to create a Civilization clone. The gang over at Firaxis are already writing a sequal, and I have no doubt they are doing a much better job of it than we ever could. Heck, the guys doing FreeCiv already have a pretty damn good clone of the game. I don't want to go there, because it's already being done by people better than I.

                Don't get me wrong, I thought Civ and Civ II were great games. Two of my favorite games ever. But one of my biggest problems with both of them is the existance of Treasure Huts. They are a random element that in the early stages of a game can make or break a Civ, and I don't think that powerful of random element belongs in a strategy game. I don't mind a certain amount of randomness, but I would rather player skill determine a game than dumb luck. I know a lot of civers disagree (because I got an awful lot of requests for them until I put them in the pit), but I don't like 'em, and I won't put them in MD. My perogative as the designer

                The Wonders, on the other hand, are a different matter. There is a very basic difference between MD and Civ. Civ attempts to simulate a specific world's history (namely, ours). In the context of our history, the Wonders in Civ make sense, for the most part (the logic of some of them still baffle me, but that's just picking nits). MD, however, makes no attempt to simulate a specific history. It's a world conquering game. It's not necessarily our world. It could be Middle Earth, or Disc world, or Mars, or even an alternate Earth. It doesn't matter, and its entirely up to the players of a particular game. In that context, the Wonders don't make any sense. In order to have a Great Wall or a Pyramids Wonder, you need the background of having the Chinese or the Egyptians (even if they are not the ones who end up with the Wonder). Our game, although it could have those cultures, doesn't necessarily have either. So for that reason, into the pit it went

                quote:


                Seriously tho. I haven't played the game. It looks really cool, but I would suggest that since space empires 4 just came out and there hasn't been a "real" civ game (oooh!) released in half-a-decade, maybe turn-based ancient history type games just don't hold the appeal they once did.



                I've heard this argument before, but I don't think so. Much the same was said about RPGs a few years ago. They say the same thing about Adventure games now. These things go in cycles. A cool game is a cool game. When someone makes an amazing game, it can pull a genre back into the mainstream. Then it gets copied to death, gets overdone, and the genre settles back into the background for a while, until being returned to the forefront again during the next cycle.

                I think turn based strat games were in the background for a while, but are on the comeback right now. CTPII and SE4 just came out. The Stars! sequal is about to hit (and this looks to be a truly amazing game to me). Civ III is on the horizon. You have not seen the last of turn based games. And ancient history is just a sub-genre of that format, and it will be there right along with it.

                quote:


                And perhaps the crowd that likes civ aren't as likely to use USENET or whatever - heck, I don't use it, or newsgroups (which I also don't "do").



                Newsgroups and USENET are one and the same. And I would suggest that if you don't know how to use it, you don't know what you're missing. If you absolutely must use a web based interface, goto www.deja.com and from there you can access USENET using a familiar web board. I prefer to use my e-mail browser, which has a built in NG browser as well, but again, that's just my personal preference.

                Anyway, my post wasn't about getting civers onto our newsgroup (although they are very certainly welcome there), but for me to find out if they were interested at all. Like I mentioned, I need to know how to prioritize my time. If there isn't enough interest in the build notes I post, I can drop them and do other things. I certainly have no intention of dropping Apolyton from my list, and as long as they will have me, I will always announce major game updates on the Alt Civ section. But it's possible there is no need to do this on a weekly or a per-patch basis. And that's what I want to find out.

                quote:


                Good luck with your game! I promise I won't steal too many of your ideas...



                hehe, thanks

                Ron
                [This message has been edited by RonHiler (edited January 25, 2001).]
                Manifest Destiny - The Race For World Domination
                -Playable Alpha now available!
                http://www.rjcyberware.com

                Comment

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