Manifest Destiny

[RonHiler]

Well, this being the new Alt. Civ. discussion board, I guess a thread on Manifest Destiny would be appropriate to post here. We'll see if anyone at all is interested, or if I am totally ignored

So, if you have any comments, questions, suggestions, or critisisms of MD, this is the place to put them.

Ron
[This message has been edited by RonHiler (edited May 06, 2000).]

[Andz83]

I tried to download the available Demo of MD, but when I unzip it, there's no executable file. Or the .exe file doesn't work. Don't remember the problem b/c had a similar problem with FreeCiv...

[RonHiler]

No executable? That would be strange. The executable should be in the directory you unzip to, and is called mdestiny.exe.

More likely is the second problem. There is a known bug which causes an error when you run from some European versions of Windows. The error says something like "0.36343 is an invalid floating point value". This bug has already been taken care of in what will become the next version of the game.

In the meantime, to get version 0.3.6 to run on your system, make the following small modification. Go to Start|Settings|Control Panel, then double click on "Regional Settings". Click on the "Number" tab. You should see a setting which says "Decimal Seperator", and it will be set to a comma. Change it to a period, and hit Apply. Close all of that, and the game should run fine.

Hope that helps. Let me know if that doesn't work and you still can't run.

Ron

[axi]

So that's why the demo did not run in my PC. I hope I haven't deleted the zip file since.

(Damn Anglo-Saxons; they're having everything the wrong way, just to confuse us normal people. )

------------------
"In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act."
George Orwell
[This message has been edited by axi (edited May 07, 2000).]

[RonHiler]

From Clash thread...

quote: Originally posted by VetLegion on 05-26-2000 07:04 PM The map is very good. Is it generated flat, and then wrapped/adjusted to a sphere, or is it made on a sphere and then streched to the screen? The map in civ2:ToT also has a globe minimap, but it is prodeuced by mathematicall approximation from flat map. It cannot be zoomed, because, simply the civ world is not round. I think you did excellent job at your map.

Thanks. It was a lot of work, but I think it was worth it. We're not the first strategy game to ever use a true spherical world, but were in the first five, I think. I know of two others, and none recently.

IRL, if the US and the USSR had ever gotten into a nuclear war (heaven forbid), they'd have tossed the missles over the north pole, since that's the shortest distance between the two contries. We wanted to have the same option, and that is really what prompted us to create a true globe in the first place

In answer to your question, the map is created flat, with some modification due account for the distortion which will happen when it is wrapped around a sphere (otherwise, you'd get a squashed look to the landmasses as you get toward the poles). The flat map is then molded to the sphere to create a globe. This is true of both the mini-map and the large map, in fact.

quote: Yes, we will try to make OC3 have direct connections in multiplayer. Your system (files) is good for play by e-mail, but it is simmilary structured to what I thought of for OC3. Can you tell me what were your headaches for direct-connection MP? I think we are nearing a workable model, and I want to see if it is good.

You probably know more about it than I do then Network coding is not an area I have delved into much. The concept was considered, but very quickly discarded (due to our game model), so I really didn't do any research into it.

quote: Also, I havent read that your game will be simultaneous turns. Can you please refer me to a document about it, or explain?

Sure. The way our model works is that one person will act as the game host (this could be, but doesn't necessarily need to be one of the players). The host will have a file called (cleverly enough) the host file, which contains a complete game state for all players. The program generates, from this file, a series of player files (one for each player), which contains a partial game state (all the information from the host file, which that particular player would be aware of).

The host sends each player their individual player file, which they can then open to see the state of their game. They then give orders to their units/cities/civ and save. A save file is generated which is returned to the host.

The host collects one save file from every player, then generates the next turn. The turn generation sequence takes the info from each save file, combines them, and from that information, determines a new game state, which is saved in a new host file. The new host file splits the relevant info into the player files, which are sent back to the players, and the whole process repeats.

So, with this model, turns are simultaneous. You play your entire turn without any input from other players as to what they are doing that turn (you can only know what they did in their last turns).

I hope I explained that well enough

Ron
[This message has been edited by RonHiler (edited May 27, 2000).]

[VetLegion]

I see. I hope you will make a few more zoom levels to ease the play.

The turn system is clear to me up to the part of combining the turns. How are they going to be combined? If one player file is executed, and then the other and so on, obviously only the first player has advantage. If they are combined on another basis, is it by commands, or by time?

For example, if two players gave move orders to units, are they processed so that each finishes its movement, and then the other does, or are they combined so that first one moves, say 1 movement point, then another, then first... and so on.

In OC3, I hope we will implement something like the later, which is in effect a real time game.

Tell me if I am bugging you too much

[amjayee]

Ron and VetLegion:

I downloaded and tried MD. There were some things I really liked. The clan creation stuff especially, as a RPG enthusiast. I'm looking forward for the final game.

I'm also a member of OC3 team. Right now, my specialty is the map. The globe map would be nice in our game, too. At least as an option for the player. I'd love to hear more details about how you made your globe. Or if that's confidental, could you guide me to some good source of information on the net? Keep up your good work, I will register your game when it's ready.

The networking stuff in your game sounded good. That's what I thought we should be doing, too. Especially the part about the clients having only partial map.

[RonHiler]

quote: Originally posted by VetLegion on 05-27-2000 04:46 AM The turn system is clear to me up to the part of combining the turns. How are they going to be combined?

Ah, good question. In cases where the stack has no interaction with another stack, they will simply be done in the order they are received (which is not necessarily going to be the same order as the player numbers). OTOH, if stacks from different players are interacting in some manner (the most obvious case would be if one is chasing another), they will be done on the basis of the stack's speed, and will be from point to point (so that the stacks in question will move only slightly each time, before the other moves, and they keep interchanging moves until they complete their full movement for that turn).

quote: For example, if two players gave move orders to units, are they processed so that each finishes its movement, and then the other does, or are they combined so that first one moves, say 1 movement point, then another, then first... and so on.

Both are exactly true. The first case is true if no other stacks are affected by the movement of the stack currently moving, but the second would be true in other cases

quote: In OC3, I hope we will implement something like the later, which is in effect a real time game.

Yeah, exactly. It can be a bit tricky to implement, but you have to take movement orders into account, otherwise one player gets an unfair advantage.

quote: Tell me if I am bugging you too much

Not at all. I enjoy discussing the game concepts. It's a good break from programming constantly

quote: Originally posted by Amjayee on 05-27-2000 04:46 AM I downloaded and tried MD. There were some things I really liked. The clan creation stuff especially, as a RPG enthusiast.

Then you should really like Leaders, heh. It's sort of our version of Civ Wonders. You'll pick up leaders at certain points in the game, and once you have them, you can train them in various skills, which will help out your civ. You'll also be able to give them titles and customize them in a few other ways. It's as close as we come to an RPG system in our game Unfortunately, they won't be real flushed out in the first Alpha, but they're high up on the list of stuff to do, so they will be better utilized fairly quickly.

quote: I'm also a member of OC3 team. Right now, my specialty is the map. The globe map would be nice in our game, too. At least as an option for the player. I'd love to hear more details about how you made your globe. Or if that's confidental, could you guide me to some good source of information on the net?

I'd certainly be willing to help out with any questions you might have. The problem is that the map systems are extremely complex (it took us some 10 months to get it working right, and it's several thousand lines of code). So there is very little chance I could adequatly explain it. The very short answer is that both the globe and main map are done using Direct3D, by wrapping a rectangular bitmap around a spherical mesh. Perhaps that would be enough to get your started? Setting up D3D and wrapping a mesh is not so tough, that's just basic 3D programming stuff. The tricky bit comes when you have to deal with the distortion caused by the wrap (what you put on the rectangular bitmap is not going to be the same as what you see on the sphere, especially when you get near the poles).

As for sources on the web, as far as I am aware, there are none That's the problem with using a system no one else uses, you have to make it up on your own, heh.

If you're going to give it a shot, though, feel absolutly free to shoot questions my way. I'll help where I can.

[pris]

Have you given Apolyton a link to the MD homepage? OpenCiv has one but it took me ages to find yours even if it was right under my nose : )

[RonHiler]

Hi Pris,

The link is under the Alternative Civ section of the Apolyton board. Alternately, you can also hit the "homepage" button at the top of this post

Ron

[amjayee]

Ron,

VetLegion found a good link of a 3d globe system. It has also the source. I'm going to check it out, if you are interested, take a look.
http://www.circuitpsyche.com/Aerth.html

[RonHiler]

Ah, yes. Actually, I have run across that site before. Sorry, I should have mentioned it, but I forgot about it

I had a conversation with the programmer of it, actually (Mark Santesson, nice guy) a while back. He used a standard fractal landscape generator, but modified it to work on a sphere. A pretty clever bit of programming.

We talked about how it might apply to MD, but in the end, I pretty much determined that it is incompatable with our current tiling scheme.

Might be useful for you guys, though.

Ron

[Mark Santesson]

quote: Originally posted by RonHiler on 05-30-2000 07:58 PM He used a standard fractal landscape generator, but modified it to work on a sphere. A pretty clever bit of programming. We talked about how it might apply to MD, but in the end, I pretty much determined that it is incompatable with our current tiling scheme.

Actually, I've been working on a new version which should be usable by you. It's template based, so you can pick the properties you want each tile to have, and how it is modified by iteration, or whatever. Most importantly, you can ask for the value at a point not coincident with the internal representation and you'll get reasonable values. This means you can tell it to generate the planet, and then ask what the terrain is like at the locations where your hexes/squares/tiles exist.


I'm doing some final modifications to it, and it should be done RSN (~1week), but you can see screenshots and get the first version executable/source at:

http://www.circuitpsyche.com/fracplan/index.html
[This message has been edited by Mark Santesson (edited May 30, 2000).]

[RonHiler]

Hi Mark,

Wow, nice work with the new program. And with the added ability to query for terrian values at any latitude and longitude, you are right, this became a whole lot more compatable with our system.

We are going to have to talk, for I am definately interested in using it. After I finish Alpha 1, I want to take a look at your system.

How long does a landscape generation take?

Ron

[Mark Santesson]

quote: Originally posted by RonHiler on 05-31-2000 09:44 AM How long does a landscape generation take?

It depends on the resolution, of course, the ones shown on the page took somewhere around 5 minutes, if I remember correctly. It's pretty slow, I know. Most of the time is spent iterating, but if you don't do enough iterations, the rainfall doesn't penetrate continents very far to the east. I'm also doing a lot of asserts, and my Trace macro for Release build doesn't compile. That should speed it up considerably.


I'm also working on getting rivers in, and eventually I hope to have erosion and sediment deposition creating river valleys. That could be a ways off, though.