Chiron Chronicles Discussion

[[LordLMP]]

do realize, the Defence Lines/Units are not at the border. And the Frontal Units don't simply stay put. Anyway, the problem with basing scenerio results in the game is that in the game, they take turns. In this game, everything happens at same time. While the spartans move in, they get bombarded by artillery at same time and so on, and may also get attacked in anotehr spot and so on.

I don't expect the Frontal Units to survive the war, but i don't expect them to get ran over so easily by the spartans, especially not through the Defence Lines, which is one or two squares behind the borders, behind the starting front lines, manned by Infantry with ECM, countering the mobility advantage the Spartan Rovers would have, while aslso being bombarded like crazy. I expect a stale mate along the Defence Lines, like in World War One. And will be more realistic than the game
General Braddock knows what he is doing


anyway, Spartans may do all its of simulations, showing they will win. If they think that, they screwed themselves over overconfidence does kill indeed.

-LordLMP

[Cyber]

LordLMP, The thing in the scenario is that it simulates quiet well a sudden, fast attack. Though the peacekeepers knew they would be eventually attacked, they were overwhelmed and disorganised by the Spartan onslaught. As the elite units have extra movement and are in an open terrain, they can pretty much go through anything in top speeds, especially enemy rovers who are patrolling around. I meant with the mistake made by the peacekeepers, that they should never had placed the rovers units, intended mostly for an attack, near the border. Rather they should have been ready, behind the defensive line, as the defensive units could handle the Spartans better.

The PK frontal units weren´t ran through the defensive line, I ended the story in that they were being ran towards the lines and expecting Guardian to continue from that.So the Spartans haven´t attacked the Defensive lines, yet .

BTW, a stalemate can be avoided by attacking the weak points on the line. Remember, the defensive units are made for defence only, so if there are no attack units near, the garrisons can´t do a anything to some Spartan hanging around near or in a captured bunker next to them.
And about the the artillery bombardment, i solved the one turn problem with that the Peacekeeper artillery couldn´t bombard the Spartans desently, because the damn war-crazy rovers moved so fast Never stayed enough in one place to make any serious damage. And if they did slow down, it meant that they were fighting peacekeepers, so there would be a risk of hitting own people.

[Blake]

Unfortunately the turnbased style of the SMAX engine means that any battle is going to give an advantage to the attacker, while in a real combat the advantage would not be so great. Think the PK'ers would sit on there arse for a year getting battered before using there missile weapons? Think again.

Basically the battles in SMAX don't have enough "time resolution" to simulate a real battle. In reality attacks and counter attacks happen on the scale of hours, days or weeks. Not years. Factor that into consideration for the battle. What you did cyber was take a one turn(year) battle in SMAX and squash it into a one day battle. The distance which takes a year to traverse in SMAX, took your units one day?

Also I was under the impression the PK territory had quite a lot of forest, which would surely slow the spartan attackers? An Elite rover unit can cross one flat/rolling tile then gets stopped cold by a forest or rocky square. Alternately move into a forest tile then attack once. I doubt the PK would have been kind enough to build a road for the spartans to use. I assume the shockwave created by the Spartan rovers travelling at well over the speed of sound obliterated all forest in their path.

So I declare the battle simulation in SMAX a big pile of manure.

In CC there is no need to restrict ourselves to the SMAX engine, especially the parts which don't make sense from a realworld point of view. We are basing CC on the SMAX universe, not the SMAX engine. Remember that. And don't try to mix n' match. The time scales get too out of whack.

edit: whoa this thread is moving fast.
[This message has been edited by Blake (edited March 14, 2001).]

[Blake]

How many crew members does a rover have? Seeing they are powered by a fission reactor my guess would be about 10.

1 Driver + 1 Weapon guy * 3 shifts.
3 Engineers
1 Guy with unknown purpose (prehaps commander?)

For a total of 10.

Altough it could also quite easily be double that.

[Cyber]

Blake, It probably does take one day from the Border to the Defensive Lines. The distance betwen them is about two game tiles, and one tile is somewhere about 100x100(?) km. If the rovers travelled say 80 kmph, i think they can go to the bunkers in one day, peacekeepers ahead or not
And there are no forest in PK area, atleast LodLMP hasn´t mentioned anything.
Besides, think about it. The battlefield was just north of the biggest desert in Planet, and deep inland. Maybe the PK´s have planted some patches of forest, but not any big ones. The Spartans would have surely noticed if a forest started suddely growing in a place where they thought was no human habitation anymore.
Once again, as i said earlier, the game simulates very well a sudden, suprise attack, nevermind the time scale and turns. The PK´s just didn´t have enough time to react properly, partly because there was no reliable information what was happening and where.

About the rovers, I imagine spartan rovers having somewhere 6 crew members.

1 Driver + 1 Weapon guy * 2 shifts
1 Engineer
1 Commander, but not a must.



[This message has been edited by Cyber (edited March 15, 2001).]

[Guardian]

Natan, the Peacekeepers would not consider your ideology to be evil. Their official view would be that you're free to pursue your own goals, just like anybody else. It's only when you try to force your will upon others that the Peacekeepers will have a problem with it. (However, these "others" will, of course, include your own citizens...)

If they follow you by their own free will, then there's no problem!
(-But there will be if you fail to give "others" that same leeway...)

In theory, it is quite possible that the Peacekeepers would not object to Spartan philosophy if the Spartans had all chosen to follow it by their own free will and left everyone else alone. -But that's not the way the world works. (Sad but true... )

[Natan]

Very well. Based on my new understanding of the situation, I am coming back to Bradock's side.
Also, wouldn't every Hive rover have nerve gas pods? And couldn't they be used against the Spartans, since they 've committed atrocities already?
[This message has been edited by Natan (edited March 16, 2001).]

[Cyber]

Whoa! Wait a minute, on what side is the Hive now? Consider the Hives situation for a moment. You´re either against the Sparta-University-Morgan coalition, or with it. There is no turning back if the Spartans see Hive units on the side of the peacekeepers. Do you think the Chiron Alliance is going to accept the Hive? Not a chance if you ask me especially when one of the requirements for joining the alliance is turning into democratic and the value of Green. That means your faction will be in the middle of two alliances, and that isn´t the best option. The Spartans are willing to forget all grudges, and take the Hive in the way it is, as they see your factions potential power.
Just a few political advices...

[[LordLMP]]

Whoa there! The deal with Braddock is just tempory alliance to fight the Spartans. Commissioner Lal doesn't know about it and it is not formal, or even official. There is only a Blood Truce with the Peacekeepers since the Hive War. Anyway, its only the southern forces who don't much combat anyhow, still enough units to propely defend the southerm parts pf Hive Territory, just cannot afford to strike the Peacekeepers, especially via a chokepoint. Hive has a lot of units and a strong Industry...not as strong as the Free Drones, but strong still :P the lost units can be easily replaced in a game year or less.

to follow up in the deal with Braddock would only mean that Hive cannot join forces with the Spartans, and they would be left alone mostly, especially if they are attacking Spartans aswell. Pact with Spartans and not attack them, then they only loose General Kane and his Loyal units, which on puts a dent on their Southern Hive Forces. The only factions the Hive is bordered with is the Free Drones in the north and the Peacekeepers via the Planetneck. rest of Hive territory is surrounded by water.

Hive is not screwed. Once Kane's units attacks the Spartansk, the Spartans will start to wonder, which will slow down the Spartans/university/Morganites acceptance of Hive to their alliance, not really stop it.

I am just fixing the mess and allowing some room for creative play which Hive has to deal with

Oh and Kane's Loyal Units comprise of veterans from the Hive War and some in attacks on Free Drone's/Spartan's blockade. I would think Hive would rotate his troops so they all have combat experience


-LordLMP

-LordLMP

[Natan]

Okay, fine, continue the path laid out. I can always just blame Kane for everything if I have to to join the Spartans. Though I'll probably find a less powerful scapegoat. Not that the Spartans can hear me saying that.

[Natan]

It looks like I'm in a real mess here. This is way too much. Way, way too much. So if I refuse to honor my deal with bradock, I lose a third of my southern forces? If I side with bradock, I have to do demo-green? This seems like a real mess. I think I should be siding with Sparta, but I just don't know anymore. What a mess.

[Cyber]

OOC: What! Sopo is permanent? You see, I don´t have Smax, only Smac and I only know the info about Sopo given on the Firaxis site, and they don´t mention about a permanent effect or losing 2 morale every time being attacked. Damn…well its time for some Nerve gas then
And LordLMP, how can that defense line stretch solidly several thousands of kilometers? You know how much soldiers they would need to effectively defend it from everywhere?
Anyways, the Spartans are not going to run through, rather blast through . The main army with the help of the Nerve gas jets, and the combined army with the PK prisoners, glued into their front armor .After all, the defending PK´s have been trained to shoot Spartans, but how about when seeing one of their comrades and friends glued to a attacking Spartan rover?hesitation is enough for the attacking Spartans...
And who cares about atrocities.The thing is, no one can stop the Spartans doing them


[This message has been edited by Cyber (edited March 17, 2001).]

[Cyber]

Double post hacked by a Spartan probe team
[This message has been edited by Cyber (edited March 17, 2001).]

[[LordLMP]]

Well, in SMAX, you loose 2 morale when being attacked by Soporific Gas, but the effected units can regain those morale thought, regaining their experience. But they must attack themselves to regain their morale/experience. Or a Monolith.

As for the Defence Lines, there is 15 ECM Gatling Squads all throughout the lines, and now spreaded with some Cult Mindworms. The Spartans would suffer damage getting through the Defence Lines, as they would be stoped once they broke through the lines, so vulnerable to be attacked while they are trying to get through. Sensors help and there is Artillery bombarding them, SAM ones at that too. and Data Acquisition is defended by three Garrisons with a Perimeter Defence, and a Commando Probe Team there.

-LordLMP

[Cyber]

Fighting each other? hows that going to help? And how do they even have it? Doesn´t bioadaptive resonance need Progenitor Psych? And the Progenitors haven´t fallen from the sky yet
Anyway, the Spartans won´t have problems when passed the defense line, if they ram a big enough hole You see if they carry their whole force fast enough through, the combatants on the other side won´be a problem. Besides, it will take time for the worms to spread all the way to Data Acquisition, as they are rather slow.
About the Sensor arrays, the Spartans have either destroyed or converted the arrays on the area they conquered now so that should negate the effect of the peacekeeper arrays. And the artillery has the same problem as before, either the Spartans are as fast as hell or they are fighting PK´s, and that would mean that there is a risk of hitting their own people.
Besides, if I may take some examples from the game, although I know some of you are ready to crucify it the damn artillery isn´t worth anything, never even doing more than minimal damage, except on a heap stack of units. My plan is to brake a large enough hole into the defense line, so that the Spartan units wont have to go through as a packed group, a juicy target for the artillery. Besides, aren´t all the artillery units near UN haven city?

Okay, different subject.The two trans-jets are going to the larger island. As I understand, there is no habitation, so its basically free land, a commodity valued by the Spartans. And please, LordLMP, don´t pop out a Pirate rover unit or something like right next to the new colony, okay? i don´t think the expedition teams are there round the clock, especially in the west.BTW, the jets will avoid getting near free Drone territory or any Pirate bases. They are trying to be as stealthy as possible
C´mon, atleast just a few nukes?


Damn, should go and get some sleep. I´ll write the Attack post on the Pk lines tomorrow...

BTW, how much battle dragoon units are there in the wastes?