commments on "The Spartan Chronicles" (vol. 3)

[Argonaut]

Hydro-> I've got a while to go yet before Roze gets too close. Personally, I was thinking it might be interesting if Junior did learn something before the cavalry arrived. Just my two cents. (That's about .76 in American money)

Googlie-> Rather than "Canadian Chronicles", how about sticking along the Spartan theme with "Spartan Chronicles, eh?" or "I AM. SPARTAN." I know, I need to get out more.

[senatus]

quote: Originally posted by Hydro on 07-06-2000 08:05 PM senatus, Was my last post what you meant by more on Yang? I agree that he is one of the deeper characters, and it is easy to play him for a sadistic despot. The truth is, of course, deeper and perhaps darker.

Hydro: Thanks for the "fix", and yeah, that was exactly what I meant. I think Yang is the most interesting and philosophical of all the leaders; the Ascetic Virtues illustrate the depth of his philosophy. Interestingly, while people label him communist, by the game rules he is not; he can't choose Democracy (which is theoretically not exclusive with the economic doctrine of communism) but he can choose Free Market. Nevertheless, his illustrated philosophy is communism and even more, the elimination of individuality. Reading recent posts (where Zak is buying something) it occurred to me that I'm not sure the Hive would even use money; in the Hive, if a citizen needs something, the Hive will provide it; and if he doesn't need it, he has no business purchasing it. Money implies individual choice and discretion. Heck, I'm not sure that the Hive citizens would even have names! Or perhaps that would wait for Yang to obtain Future Society: Thought Control. But nonetheless, we should take care to avoid making the Hive look like the old USSR; it's far more "functional", and also far more extreme.

Is Yang in SC a sadist? Perhaps, but I don't believe that he thinks so. Even when describing MG's torture, I hoped to make it clear that any sadism was from Sand; Yang's motivations were twofold: (1) to air a public recantation by MG to demoralize her followers and (2) philosophical; it would be a personal challenge to Yang to overcome the "wrongheaded" beliefs of another faction leader, especially if that faction leader espoused a conflicting ideology with Yang's own (i.e. Lal, Miriam, or Morgan). Presumably that's why he's spending "quality time" with Morgan Jr.
[This message has been edited by senatus (edited July 08, 2000).]

[senatus]

Coming back to an earlier point... about where this story is going.

I like the unpredictability, certainly. Although I think it also is nice when there's a synergy in the various plotlines.

Some trends I'm noticing:

Transcedii are starting to appear (Sarah, baby Ruth).

The Circle is an outgrowth of the philosophy "Will to Power". But normal humans are far from obsolete - the best probe operative still active is in fact a normal human (Roze). Not to mention sooner or later the faction leaders may collectively decide that the Circle has moved from annoyance to a serious threat... at which time, super-telempath or not, Ashandii had better watch out.

And, of more importance: Time is not on the humans' side, while the Usurpers remain alive. If they can put their technology into mass production (perhaps aided by Yang), it's over. Lightsniper's team will provide vital intelligence here.

Taken together, and remaining faithful to the concept of the Spartan Chronicles (eh!), I can't see the story being "writeable" to the point of Transcendant Ascent. Either military victory or military defeat will be inevitable (heh - just like in the game, where you know if you're going to win or lose, and it's just a matter of finishing the steps). What might be interesting is if it looks like the humans are going to lose, Yang might decide to betray the Usurpers at an opportune moment - after all, the Usurpers' ultimate goal is not compatible with any human factions, and if they summon reinforcements, the humans become disposable (and will be disposed of).

Anyways, lots of possibilities. But I think that some sort of growing focus to our collective work will take shape.

(Just meandering thoughts... I was oddly much more lucid with my previous post at 5:40 this morning after I cleaned up a cat hairball ).

[Argonaut]

That's a neat thought Senatus. I honestly never thought of the Hive as communist. I always saw Yang as a dictator. Everything was for the good of the state and the state acted as one. But everyone served their purpose and not everyone was equal. The way drones are connected to Yang's character as his labour force, I see a distinct class structure. Rather than communism, I saw it more as a "Big Brother" society ("1984" by Orwell, not the TV show by CBS). But I suppose, a lot of that applies to what communism always ends up being when people try and apply it. I don't know, it's kind of late and I think I'm rambling. I think I'll go now....hmmm....I might need to do some editing.

------------------
Jason the Argonaut
"I like horses. Thank You."
-Daniel MacIvor

[Googlie]

It's interesting that Firaxis didn't attempt to label Yang (or Domai, for that matter) as communists, but instead labeled PLANNED as communistic.

Quote (from script.txt):

#SOCIAL1CAT2WAR1
#xs 440
#caption $CAPTION7
"I see my warnings have gone unheeded, $TITLE0 $NAME1. I shall not
allow your Planned economics to stifle the just and proper
flow of capital on this planet. I shall now use all means at my
disposal to rid this world of the evils of communism and
nationalized industry! Vendetta upon you, $TITLE0 $NAME1!"


I got that message (from Morgan) when I was, as Deirdre, PLANNED for a few turns.

Just a thought.

(And, RATS, I missed the July 9th anniversary. HAPPY BIRTHDAY Spartan Chronicles)

Googlie

[senatus]

You know, it occurs to me that we also don't have a very good view of Santiago in SC... and ultimately, all the key characters' actions should revolve around her.

I see Santiago in the same way I see other historical (and larger-than-life) military geniuses. Actually, a model I've been using for her would be Oda Nobunaga crossed with Alexander. Nobunaga was shrewd and ruthless and IMO more brilliant than Alexander (who after all inherited his superb army from his father Philip of Macedon). I don't see Santiago being as politically astute as Caesar (who was a brilliant propagandist). In fact, I see her as basically self-serving - she's out to become top dog. The interesting challenge for her is now she is leader of the pack; the pack is depending on her to lead them to victory and preserve them from the aliens. I kind of doubt that Santiago ever really thought about what she would do after she reached the top... she could waste it, or she could actually grow and rise to the occasion.

Myself, I lean to the latter, since I favour a Spartan victory or at least a brave defeat.

[Googlie]

Well said, Hydro. And spot on.

Santiago's code of honor necessitated Ashaandi's release as it was he who engineered her escape from the Yoop revolutionaries. She let the "wolves" crucify Googlie and while she thought it would be easy to work with - perhaps even control - him in his civilian capacity as Lal's surrogate, she is taken aback - nay, furious, with Googlie's blackmail.

(And I can't remember, but I don't think she rescinded the police state order, did she? - or at least I can't recollect writing about it)

And Googlie never was her man - a reluctant Spartan, more because of the exigencies of the situation in the Unity escape. His sympathies lie with Lal, his old boss from earth. Does Googlie wield any real power? Only by sufferance, until Lal comes out of the tanks besotted with a new Pria.

Googlie would actually have been happy in the role as ambassador to the Gaians, living in Velvetgrass Point - at least until he met Anastasia. Now he doesn't know what he wants - back into a fighting role perhaps/ Maybe frustrated by the apparent lack of action on getting to Stazi that he adopts another of his hairbrained personal rescue plans and calls in all sorts of IOU's to help him there?

Yang is a reluctant combatant, too. Drawn into a war only by the ferociousness of Santiago's response to the initial skirmish, vendetta aptly describes his mood. The escalation took him by surprise, and noteworthy was his counter to the ultimatum - his terms for peace was a restoration of the status quo. When that was denied, he lashed out with everything, at everyone. he is opportunistic, though, in seeing the Progenitors as a possible salvation, but recognizing that longer term he may have to fight them as well.

And the Allied War Council, with Marr and Yang, is about to meet..........

Lal is such an easy caricature. Vacillating, mumbling at every opportunity about the precious Charter, pushing democracy to the absurd, easily led (by Dee re the nuclear weapons decision). appeasing (trading four bases to Domai for six techs?), but populous, so can't be discounted once the war machine gets cranked up (maybe Googlie's 'blackballing' by Santiago will force him to concentrate on the internal PK issues)

Morgan we have portrayed as the somewhat enlightened capitalist - one with a conscience (when it suits him, as when the Gaian mindworms are massing) - but also a bit of a sentimentalist.

And as Hydro says, we all have portrayed Dee as the lovely victim. 'xept she did bully Lal spomewhat, and also drove hard bargains with Morgan and Santiago.

As for the resistance movements - the Believers have ben portrayed (until now) as weak and ineffectual - mainly because they are resisting Yang, so small acts of civil disobedience have been the norm.

The Yoop have been more dangerous. Kidnapping Santiago. The destruction of Pointa Sur. More active than passive resistance (and fomented by Yang, Morgan and Lal)

So in my opinion, we haven't portrayed Corazon at all badly. I find it hard to label her as 'idealistic', as I'm not sure "the right to bear arms" is an ideaology. Perhaps the "aversion to wealth" is moreso, but I don't think we have exploited that at all vis-a-vis Morgan relations.

Googlie

[Hydro]

Googlie,

A couple of quick notes. The Spartan police state was never rescinded, and I get the distinct feeling that it will be in effect through the end of the war. Police and green counteract each other nicely, although the low efficiency and high number and spread of Spartan bases must be killing the Spartan economy and creating lots of unhappy drones, particularly in the 'liberated' Hive bases. These Hive bases alone are an excellent reason for keeping the police state in action since Santiago can't mess around with facilities or extra troops behind the lines.

Lal traded 2 bases (one on Mt. Planet and one sea base near Mt. Planet) to Domai for the techs, which was actually a great deal for both. Lal gave Domai a bit more security, since living in Yangland is not a happy thing when you are small, and this act doubled the number of his bases. Lal was made a 'player' with the tech, with served both Lal and Domai, since Domai gains by spreading the power around. Where Lal is indecisive is that he still hasn't geared up his economy for war and is still dithering with recycling tanks and city improvements. So he just doesn't get it. Maybe Googlie will help him figure this out…

Hydro

[Googlie]

Hydro:

Right, of course, my mistake - 2 bases for the techs, and it was three techs (you should know, after all - it was your post)

Point I was making - which you elaborated on - was that his research was suffering, his military was suffering, heck even his economy was suffering thru his dithering.

We'll see if G can make a difference (but don't hold your breath)

G.


[This message has been edited by Googlie (edited July 12, 2000).]

[Hydro]

senetus,

Santiago has been portrayed as focused, honorable, and with a closely held set of principles. The flip side is that she is blind/stubborn, not politically astute, and opaque to outsiders, and even her inner circle. She holds to her guns during times of trouble, as in her war with the UoP and now the Hive, so she is focused. My guess is that she is not likely to call off the war for convenience or political reasons and will go down fighting, if that is her fate. Her personal code of honor is also applied to others, which is why Santiago did not feel much remorse in letting the wolves devour Googlie – he made his own bed with his many mistakes in judgement and now must sleep in it. Her honor (I am guessing) also prompted her to release Ashaandi, who is very dangerous indeed. Santiago’s motivations/principles have always been a little obscure, as with her disappearance to ‘test’ her underlings.

So now Santiago is furious with Googlie. Can you blame her? She is being blackmailed on a personal level, which uses her sense of honor against her. She sees what she did with Ashaandi as entirely correct, and Googlie’s punishment as deserved. Considering Santiago’s track record Googlie has just made a dangerous enemy. In typical Santiago fashion she is up front about it – no skullduggery, just a bald face vendetta.

Santiago isn’t just shown in a bad light, it’s just that she is complex. Compare her to the one-dimensional whiny and indecisive Lal, formerly-ruthless-but-now-good-guy Morgan (what does he believe, anyway?), or sadistic and ruthless Yang. Of the leaders in Spartan Chronicles the only one that is ‘good’ and ‘true’ is Deirdre, which is as it should be (wink wink).

Hydro

[senatus]

quote: Originally posted by Hydro on 07-12-2000 12:36 PM senetus, Santiago has been portrayed as focused, honorable, and with a closely held set of principles....

Hydro, I know you won't mind if I use your words exactly in my latest installment . Thanks also to you and Googlie for the clarifying comments.

Acknowledgement is also due to David Weber, from whom I borrowed the term "Mental Hygiene" and some elements of Masada's Faithful for the Hive and Believers respectively.

[Lochaber]

Hey everyone,

I've been reading and enjoying the Spartan Chronciles for awhile now, and would like to take a stab at writing. What characters or units are up for grabs? Probe teams, empath units, and air units seem to be covered. I was thinking of writing from the perspective of a group of rank and file infantry. Is this ok with everyone?

[senatus]

quote: Originally posted by Lochaber on 07-17-2000 02:35 AM Hey everyone, I've been reading and enjoying the Spartan Chronciles for awhile now, and would like to take a stab at writing. What characters or units are up for grabs? .... I was thinking of writing from the perspective of a group of rank and file infantry.

I suppose the old 469th (a bioenhanced elite Spartan infantry brigade) is available... haven't heard from them in a while. Or you could start a fresh unit... for infantry, aside from some PK action, mostly it's Sparta that puts troops on the line (Morgan doesn't really have much of an army, the PK's are too far away, the Gaians don't use regular troops, and the other factions are pretty much too weak, or not militarily inclined). Of course, even "rank and file" Spartan troops are going to be pretty close to commando status, since they have the inherint bonous, the Command Nexus, and I suspect they're running Power? Or you could even run a Hive unit I suppose.

[Argonaut]

Lochaber -> You could always take over the Hive offensive. Not much has really been done since the landing of Yang's oh-so intimidating, but thus far not impressive allies. Perhaps and Usurper unit, or a Hive-Usurper Offensive could be cool. Yang's gotta fight back at some point or he's a dead man.

P.S. I'm ready when ever you are Senatus!

------------------
Jason the Argonaut
"I like horses. Thank You."
-Daniel MacIvor
[This message has been edited by Argonaut (edited July 17, 2000).]

[senatus]

quote: Originally posted by Argonaut on 07-17-2000 01:58 PM Lochaber -> You could always take over the Hive offensive. Not much has really been done since the landing of Yang's oh-so intimidating, but thus far not impressive allies. Perhaps and Usurper unit, or a Hive-Usurper Offensive could be cool. Yang's gotta fight back at some point or he's a dead man. P.S. I'm ready when ever you are Senatus!

I can see it now, them drilling together.

Hive Sargeant: "Give me 50 private! Don't give me any mandible! And you! Polish that chiton!"

Usurper Lieutenant: "Hive Sargeant: Subject. Object: Cranial carapice. Location: Rear organic waste passage, inserted in?"

P.S. Ready to go, argo!