New PBEM - waterworld

[Maniac]

Attached file contains the alphax.txt and both normal and aquatic versions of the factions minus Pirates.

Centauri Hydrology is the equivalent of Doctrine: Flexibility.

About to PM Darsnan. (Edit: Scrap that. His PM inbox is full.)

Gotta rush off again now...

[GeoModder]

What's the rush?

[Darsnan]

Re: New PBEM - waterworld

Originally posted by Kirov
land tiles would be rather scattered, forming archipelagos of small islands.

All factions should be aquatic, but this is done by adding "aquatic" feature to standard factions, rather than by creating new ones. Of course, Pirates are banned.

To enhance the naval aspect of the game, I'd like to see air power seriously (and I really mean seriously) cut. I'd love the solution to allow jets and choppers only as transports. We can also enable heavy transports and move subs and other modules earlier in the tech tree.

Another thing is that Maritime Control Center has to be disabled, and all faction that gonna play should get Doc:Flex and Aquatic ability. Which also means that Believers are much stronger here than on a standard map...

Hi All,

I am beginning work on the map now, and based on the above. I am going to assume that this is a Huge Map, and that the human players are the following "aquatized" Factions:

Kirov: Spartans
GeoModder: Gaians
Maniac: Hive?
Hobbes: Consciousness

Note that per the above I will disable the MCC. Do you want me to disable the Empath Guild as well? Also, in a game of this nature I don't think the CBA is as overpowered and should be left as is. Any feedback on this?
As far as basic units in the alphax.txt file are concerned: I will add a cost reduced (say 3 mineral rows) <6xr>/3r/6 sub with Marine Detachment available with Doc: Init. These are really fun to play with, and the AI's will build lots of them, which is really to their advantage!
I can also introduce an aircraft carrier with the discovery of Monopole Magnets. Note though that the AI's will not be able to use this unit effectively.....

From a map perspective I can place sea monoliths, make items such as the Garland Crater and the Uranium Flats sea-accessible, etc. Does anyone have an issue with this?

Finally, how tough do you want the AI's to be?


D

[GeoModder]

How about a smaller map? My vote goes for the 40x80 size.
What do the others say?

Empath Guild can stay for me, keeping probe teams out of ones seabases will be a hellish job anyway so...

And the AI may be tough for me.

[H0bbes]

Everything sounds good to me Darsnan, lets keep the Empath Guild. Huge map is fine for me. Make the AI tough!

Hobbes

[Maniac]

I'm with Geomodder re the map size. Personally I never play on huge maps. I'd prefer either a large or a standard map. Creativity with the map re monoliths and landmarks is of course great!

Though personally I do not consider the MCC unbalancingly overpowered even in a aquatic game (eg I'd much rather have the Vitro Fertilization Center (PTS) or the Empath Guild than the MCC), I'm fine with disabling it.

I too agree to keep the Empath Guild. The same with the "CBA". Especially since SMAniaC has a rather different tech tree and the equivalent of the CBA has been put much later in the tech tree anyway.

When adding new basic units, keep in mind the names of certain weapons and armours has changed, as has their value. Eg 3-res armour now is Fungal Jumpsuit (name blatantly stolen from Aldebaran ) and is in fact 2r armour. I'd also suggest that if any new basic units are added, that they are AI only and humans may not use them (as is the case with the AI Probe). It would mess up the whole game if you got resonance lasers for free as well when researching Know-How: Sea Power (DocInit equivalent).

Re aircraft carriers and monopole magnets, SMAniaC's tech tree is completely different, and already touches the classical complaints about standard SMAC. Monopole Magnets doesn't exist anymore as a tech (magtubes do of course), and the carrier deck and submarine ability are now available with Nanometallurgy, a level 5 tech. So you should be able to get aircraft carriers relatively quick IF you decide to b-line to it. That's one of the reasons I think SMAniaC is much better suited than standard SMAC for an aquatic game.

Regarding AI difficulty. FYI I usually set faction strategy as in the picture attached: an emphasis on building colony pods, formers and probes. For an aquatic game I guess an emphasis on sea power and sea bases is also desired. Since SMAniaC uses elements of Aldebaran's world builder which creates maps with lots of ocean shelfs, the AI doesn't suffer by building lots of sea bases.

In addition to the faction strategy above, in my test games I usually give the AIs some nut, min and energy satellites. Personally I prefer giving the AIs satellites over extra starting units or bases, since satellite boni kick in gradually as the AI grows, while more starting units and bases make the AI ultrapowerful in the early game (and research lots of tech which gives an IMHO too large advantage to the human player who is lucky enough to discover and trade techswith an AI first) but then gets weaker and weaker later on. Oh btw, if satellites are used I'd suggest disabling random events, so they don't suffer from meteor strikes etc. I'd suggest disabling random events anyway - personally I don't like interrupted communications: 20 years takes a long time in a PBEM game...
To avoid confusion: you need to give a faction Secrets of Alpha Centauri and not Orbital Spaceflight to be able to see the F6 satellite screen and add satellites.

[Kirov]

I'm fine with either standard or large map - the latter, perhaps.

Usually I'm against EG, but hell, it can stay. CBA as well.

Darsnan, fell free to add more default units at your will.

Sea landmarks and monoliths are also fine, but I'd like to keep those scarce land tiles very useful and precious, so that people wanted to go land.

Can you boost our starting conditions even more than usual, or maybe add one land colony base? With sea mineral harvest is very poor and it can take ages before we set up any industry worth mentioning (remember that Pirates have bonus minerals on shelf tiles).

Can I get, as Spartans, more units to explore? Landwise, their scout rover is very useful...

Anyway, coming to restricting air power - I'd either halve their movement (worse idea) or ban better weapons (better idea). But contrary to Geo, I don't want to allow more than 6 attack, maybe even 4. Chaos guns can be quite useful for a long time.

[GeoModder]

I got no problem with less then 8 attack on flying craft.
And it seems the middle choice here is a large map for the game. that's 44x90, right?

[Maniac]

Originally posted by Kirov
Can you boost our starting conditions even more than usual, or maybe add one land colony base? With sea mineral harvest is very poor and it can take ages before we set up any industry worth mentioning

FYI, in SMAniaC building a mine no longer reduces nutrient production. Also IIRC mining platforms produce 2 minerals right from the start. In addition to the aquatic bonus we all get sea tiles will be VERY productive.

Another consideration: the more boosted our starting position, the more the AI will have to be boosted as well to compensate.

Can I get, as Spartans, more units to explore? Landwise, their scout rover is very useful...

Anyway, coming to restricting air power - I'd either halve their movement (worse idea) or ban better weapons (better idea). But contrary to Geo, I don't want to allow more than 6 attack, maybe even 4. Chaos guns can be quite useful for a long time.

Personally I do not consider it necessary to further reduce air power. It already has been weakened in SMAniaC. For example attack choppers only have five movement points before fusion power. Needlejets still have the same movement points, but they are available later than choppers, and you will have aerospace complexes and the AAA ability long before you can use needlejets, so it's definitely possible to build up your defenses. And to protect your ships in the middle of the ocean, you could use psi armour in combination with AAA to give a 1-to-2 advantage assuming equal morale.

For these reasons I do not believe air power needs to be further weakened, and that it is all right as it is. I could be wrong of course, but there's no way to find out unless we play SMAniaC as is!

[Darsnan]

Originally posted by Maniac
the more boosted our starting position, the more the AI will have to be boosted as well to compensate.

Not necessarily. I think in this nutrient rich/ mineral deficient environment that the AI's can be viable adversaries in this game.

Note that since this game is going to be on a large map that I will scale back the sub I plan on inserting and make it a <4>/1/4 available with the requisite tech for Level 4 weapons. For the a/c carrier I'll review the techs and see where is the best place to have this available at.

Originally posted by Maniac
Personally I do not consider it necessary to further reduce air power. It already has been weakened in SMAniaC. For example attack choppers only have five movement points before fusion power. Needlejets still have the same movement points, but they are available later than choppers, and you will have aerospace complexes and the AAA ability long before you can use needlejets, so it's definitely possible to build up your defenses. And to protect your ships in the middle of the ocean, you could use psi armour in combination with AAA to give a 1-to-2 advantage assuming equal morale.

For these reasons I do not believe air power needs to be further weakened, and that it is all right as it is. I could be wrong of course, but there's no way to find out unless we play SMAniaC as is!

I'll let you guys debate this. I don't plan on making any changes to the alphax.txt file in this regard for this game. FYI.


D

[Maniac]

Originally posted by Darsnan
I'll review the techs and see where is the best place to have this available at.

FYI there's a tech tree jpg file in the full download.

[Darsnan]

Originally posted by Maniac


FYI there's a tech tree jpg file in the full download.

Grrr - you are persistent in prodding me to download SMAniaC, aren't you!

Anyways, mod downloaded (overwriting another loading of SMAC(X) ). I am now starting work on this game. If you have any final input, as well as password preferences, please let me know. Game should be done in around 4-5 days. FYI.


D

[Darsnan]

Re: New PBEM - waterworld

Hi All,

almost done setting up the game - should be done in about 12 hours or so. Just some final feedback is needed, as well as some observations from my end.

Originally posted by Kirov
A CMN is needed to create a map, as it should be more than 90% water, and land tiles would be rather scattered, forming archipelagos of small islands.

Map is at least 80-85% water.

Originally posted by Kirov
All factions should be aquatic, but this is done by adding "aquatic" feature to standard factions, rather than by creating new ones.

Done.

Originally posted by Kirov
To enhance the naval aspect of the game, I'd like to see air power seriously (and I really mean seriously) cut. I'd love the solution to allow jets and choppers only as transports. We can also enable heavy transports and move subs and other modules earlier in the tech tree.

Note that I haven't played with the airpower at all. If you all want to do this amongst yourselves, feel free.

There is a cost reduced 4/1/5 Foil that is a sub with marine detachment available with Level 4 weapons. There is also a cost reduced 8/1/6 Cruiser sub that has marine detachment and air superiority available with level 8 weapons. These should keep the AI's more competitive for the long term.

Originally posted by Kirov
Maritime Control Centre should rather go, as it would be more inbalancing than CV or EG. I'm sure I had also some other petty changes in mind, but forgot them atm.

MCC will go. Any other SP's?

Also, GEOMODDER, since your Gaian, do you mind other Factions starting with Formers, or would you rather they don't?

KIROV: since your playing Sparta I will start you off with a different aquatic unit to give you the same movement advantage that you would have on land.

AI's are slightly tweaked (and no perma-pacts), but currently I have not given them satelites. Does anyone wish this?

Finally: turn tracking thread name. Anyone got any ideas?

Once I receive replies to my comments I will finish the game and ship it out.


D

[GeoModder]

Well, if you give me an extra former to emphasize the Gaians' benefit here I have no objections at all...

Nah, no problem, do as you see fit.

I propose "Chirons' One Ocean" (abbreviated "CO²") as turn thread name.

[Maniac]

Re: Re: New PBEM - waterworld

Originally posted by Darsnan
There is a cost reduced 4/1/5 Foil that is a sub with marine detachment available with Level 4 weapons. There is also a cost reduced 8/1/6 Cruiser sub that has marine detachment and air superiority available with level 8 weapons. These should keep the AI's more competitive for the long term.

Fellow players, may I suggest these units are AI only?

AI's are slightly tweaked (and no perma-pacts), but currently I have not given them satelites. Does anyone wish this?

Only if the AIs aren't competitive without them.

Btw, are random events OFF?