Sorting It Out

[Hercules]

Turn 2115 replayed sent to BinT for examination.

[binTravkin]

If Fosse knew he could take my base he should have said so the turn before he took it

This is where you're wrong Herc.
If he can take the base and anyone else (not less skilled than him) can repeat that given the turn and his password, he must announce it AFTER he notices the fact he can and then the game is over for you as your only action for next turn is obliterating your last base.

This might cause in a reload (when player first takes the base and then plays it again leaving it intact), but for the sake of fairness its perfectly fitting.

[Hercules]

Originally posted by binTravkin


If he can take the base and anyone else (not less skilled than him) can repeat that given the turn and his password, he must announce it AFTER he notices the fact he can and then the game is over for you as your only action for next turn is obliterating your last base.

This might cause in a reload (when player first takes the base and then plays it again leaving it intact), but for the sake of fairness its perfectly fitting.

he must announce it AFTER he notices the fact he can and then the game is over for you as your only action for next turn is obliterating your last base.

That's my point he should have announced it the turn before, when he noticed he 'could obliterate' and then that would be tested.

Notice what you said, my only action next turn is obliterate.

Because he has tested whether he can obliterate or not my only option now is replay and obliterate.

Anyhow did you test the resend on the base defence issue.

[Hercules]

btw I asked this question in a friendly manner. I am not going to survive anyhow but I am interested in fairness.

In games where the procedure is carried out as per the rules (no reflection on Fosse btw), there is no need usually for reloads: there is no dispute.

It goes:

I believe I can take your last base next turn. I have x unit(s) with y mps and hitpower.

response: yes OK or
have you taken into account my u and w unit.

But part of it also, is the uncertainty of moving thru the fungus random number bit.

Anyway let's get this over with.

[Fosse]

In never thought it was about me, or our conflict in particular. Just about understanding the rules. Now, I'm in favor of following binT's ruling, as it makes sense to me and it matches my understanding of the rule.... but this is all new to me, so...In the spirit of my education...

I've found the article about eliminating a player on Civgaming.net, in the old SMAC Academy. It's the only "documentation" I've found.

http://www.civgaming.net/smac/acad_elimination.shtml

It says, among other things:

1. Once one can demonstrate[1] that the players last city could have been taken one stops short of taking it and orders the opponent to selfdestruct.
2. Opponent selfdestructs. To selfdestruct he needs a millitary unit in the city. One activates the unit and presses B. There will be a chance to save the game and it can be sent on. On the next turn the selfdestructing player will no longer show and the game can continue without him.

That sounds like what happened here. I was able to demonstrate (even if through an ignorance of the need to) that I could take the base. I alerted.

but from what you've been saying, Hercules, the correct time to alert you (and the board in general, or just you?) would have been a turn earlier? When I thought I could take you?

Incidentally, I didn't know for sure I could finish the base until I started the last turn. I was aware of your units in the fungus, but not aware of if or when they would get to your base or attack my units in the field. I didn't actually know until this turn that I would succeed this turn (eventually, maybe. ).

So my questions are:
1. ) Is there another "written" rule someplace for dealing with this situation? Does the SMAC Academy write up serve as the "official" status?

2. ) How does the "I'll get you next turn" notice - if that is indeed how it's usually done - affect gameplay? Here it's been basically agreed upon that it would have changed gameplay - possibly substantially.

3.) If one can deomonstrate taking a base through incredible luck - extremely lucky RNG roles let a unit with 10% health walk into a final base - and appropriate screenshots are taken (and we assume honesty on all parts), but because of the luck of the RNG a CMN cannot reproduce it every time - or even any time - what then? If it were the second to last base and extreme luck let the aggressor take it it would stand, since we don't hit the problem. But it seems the last one might be special beyond its status as "last."

4.) Any other rule potholes I'm likely to find one day?


--- anyhow, I appreciate the chance to figure out another nuances of the PBEM game (my first few being a humble lesson in how behind the curve I was in my playing while watching Shawnmc play, the second being an election process that binTravkin might remember. ).

Regards,
Fosse

[H0bbes]

I srongly disagree with your thesis Hercules, that an attacking player should notify their "belief" that they can attack and take a final base. This is rubbish, and as Fosse points out, has the potential to change the defending player's actions.
FOSSE did not have to tell you that he could (or might be able to) destroy your base so that you can play differently (and perhaps defend successfully). YOU DON'T GET A WARNING!!! FOSSE CAN destroy your base. We know this because he DID destroy your base.
As I see it there is one sensible and straightforward way of dealing with this bug:

The attacking player attacks and successfully destroys all defenders and has a unit with enough movement points left to take the base. They prove this through screen shots and/or a saved turn which is forwarded to the CMN (if there is one). The CMN then directs that the attacking player replays the turn leaving one unit. The turn is saved & passed on to the defending player who obliterates their base with that remaining unit. There will be a necessary reload.

Any talk of luck is irrelevant. We all know that attackers can occasionally win against overwhelming odds & that sometimes units move in fungus & sometimes don't. That's life. This is irrelevant because Fosse has already taken the base! He doesn't need to prove anything- has has already shown that not only can he take your base but he DID!!! In this I disagree with bin Travkin- it's not about reproduciblity. This may have been a 1 in a million shot- but it worked! We have PROOF that it worked this time. Whether or not it would have worked any other time is irrelevant. IT WORKED THIS TIME!

QUOTE: "If he had said he could destroy my base I would have played slightly differently."

What a load of crap!!!! Fosse doesn't have to give you notice so you can modify your play and prevent him from possibly conquering your base! Honestly!! Take responsiblity for your own choices and lack of foresight/planning. You could have (and obviously should have) taken adequate defensive action in the first place.

In your own words Herc, "let's get this over with."


PLAY THE DAMN TURN. THIS IS RIDICULOUS.

Hobbes

[Senethro]

<3

[binTravkin]

1. ) Is there another "written" rule someplace for dealing with this situation? Does the SMAC Academy write up serve as the "official" status?

I guess no, at least I don't know of it.

2. ) How does the "I'll get you next turn" notice - if that is indeed how it's usually done - affect gameplay? Here it's been basically agreed upon that it would have changed gameplay - possibly substantially.

It was invented by Hercules.
The notice is actually "I could have got you last turn".

3.) If one can deomonstrate taking a base through incredible luck - extremely lucky RNG roles let a unit with 10% health walk into a final base - and appropriate screenshots are taken (and we assume honesty on all parts), but because of the luck of the RNG a CMN cannot reproduce it every time - or even any time - what then? If it were the second to last base and extreme luck let the aggressor take it it would stand, since we don't hit the problem. But it seems the last one might be special beyond its status as "last."

In this I disagree with bin Travkin- it's not about reproduciblity.

It's not about reproducibility, but if the player who must resign or any other player is suspicious or has any other reasons to insist on CMN to check it, CMN must be able to reproduce it or at least see it as possible if he had bad luck in reproducing.
In ultimate cases CMN will be trying it some round (e.g. 10) number of times and then if statistics are positive, put his Seal Of Approval.

4.) Any other rule potholes I'm likely to find one day?

Dunno, some minor probably yes.

I was in my playing while watching Shawnmc play

Yeah I remember him.
He could be seen saying ants where to move in his factions territory..


Anyways, I tried out the last file I've been sent and it's no difference, so as I said more than a week a go "you can go on".

[Hercules]

Anyways, I tried out the last file I've been sent and it's no difference, so as I said more than a week a go "you can go on

That's Ok, that's all I wanted to know.

I will replay the turn to self distruct.

[Hercules]

Turn 2115 to Arcainite. Gaian base destroyed.

[Hercules]

Hmmmm so much for the urgency

[Arcainite]

2115

Turn sent to Hobbes

[H0bbes]

Turned to AndiD.

Sorry about reload, I forgot that I was a replacement in this game & tried all my usual passwords to no avail.

Hobbes

[AndiD]

2116 to Fosse.

[Fosse]

Turn to Senethro.