To all in pbem with HongHu

[Googlie]

Originally posted by Hercules
Regarding all the expolits, the one I am most puzzled by, is the repeated reloading exploit to obtain favourable pop pods outcomes and probably related, the winning MW encounters with such high frequency. Why didn't my turn say;

"Excuse me, Mr Enigma may have reloaded 3,ooo times."

E_N has developed a hack that removes that message from PBEMs

He published that some four months ago, and had all the CMN's up in arms, flaming him in his thread and demanding its retraction. He refused.

We went to Ming/Dan/Mark and within minutes the thread was removed from the forums. An unrepentant E_N still complains about that "censorship"

I know he can't help but use it - certainly in the game I'm in with him and he has admitted to it in his other games.

The real question is: Is he clean as regards ACDG3 though?

[Snowflake]

I'm sorry smacksims. Yes I have tried to use myself to influence people. But I cannot force everybody to think as I do. I do not have right to judge other people. I withdraw the statement that I would like to continue playing the HoF game.

[Snowflake]

I would like to inform everyone that is in the demo game and the SMAC pbem community, that I would like to withdraw from the ACDGIII and the pbem community.

I am doing this because I feel that we have mistreated Enigma. I understand that he has made big mistakes in the past. But nobody has announced to him in public, “No, what you did is wrong.” He has not been given a chance to say he is sorry. He has not been given a chance to prove that he will correct his mistakes. This is the first time it is announced to the public that he did something wrong. And he said that he is sorry. And he said that he will never do it again. And as a CMN in the demo game I have the opportunity to know that he has started to play honestly in the first replayed turn and the third turn where he was the turn player. I will not vouch for him that he has become an honest player. I simply believe that he, as anybody else, deserves to be given one chance to prove himself. However I understand the society is determined to banish him. I understand the bitter feelings he has caused in the past, and I have no right to judge other people’s decisions. But I personally feel what we are doing is equivalent to this: We watched without doing anything when a person is falling into a deep chasm. When he finally realizes it and tries to grab to a little tree and starts to climb back up, we throw rocks at him.

The collective consciousness is such a dangerous thing. Rules can be overlooked when people do not feel like to uphold it. People can abuse their power in deciding when and where a certain person should be punished. When a wall starts to fall, everyone joins in to push it. When it is used in a way the public deemed to be right, means can be employed that are equivalent to what is deemed to be forbidden. The traditionally set up CMN/player framework can be ignored and passwords of games can be bypassed without proper authorization, only because it is used to gather evidences to execute the person that is deemed to be the enemy by the society.

I do not have any more rights to judge other people’s action than anybody else. I also understand why you don’t see what I see, and don’t agree what I believe. Please understand this is not a blackmail trying to force anybody’s hand. This is my own protest against what I believe to be the unfairness of the collective consciousness.

The harm that is done could not be undone. But with the conclusion of this incident I believe the demo game and the pbem community will become much smoother. Please remember that it is a precious thing that we all gathered together from everywhere of the world, for the love of a game. Let us all try our best to help this world to become a more beautiful place.

Best wishes to all of you and to the game.

I love you all.

[Darsnan]

Originally posted by HongHu
I would like to inform everyone that is in the demo game and the SMAC pbem community, that I would like to withdraw from the ACDGIII and the pbem community.

I am doing this because I feel that we have mistreated Enigma. I understand that he has made big mistakes in the past. But nobody has announced to him in public, “No, what you did is wrong.”

HongHu,

Googlie's statement below is correct. Enigma continued doing this despite the uproar and obvioous denunciations he caused. Our statements couldn't have been more clear to him to stop what he was doing. FYI.



D

Originally posted by Googlie
E_N has developed a hack that removes that message from PBEMs

He published that some four months ago, and had all the CMN's up in arms, flaming him in his thread and demanding its retraction. He refused.

[smacksim]

Edit: This is in reply to HongHu.

I just don't know where we have mistreated E_N. I'm not privvy to the private ACDG forums for the other teams, but I have not read any post anywhere that actually does anything to anyone about the matter.

You are getting upset and absolutist a bit too early. As I said, I plan to wait a day or two before lodging a formal complaint to the administrators of the site, to see if new things come to light. I have no idea if anyone else has already done so. If they have, it would be nice to know about it so I don't waste the mods/admins time with another complaint in parallel.

So forgive me if you know about things actually being 'done' to E_N that have nothing to do with this thread. But if you are talking about the arguments in the thread, I think you'll see that only Chaunk and I have argued for a ban (and Chaunk's post was in Bear Baiting, here). Everyone else seems to think 'Whatever, let him do whatever' is fine. So I'm really not sure what you are getting at HongHu.

-Smack

[smacksim]

HongHu, I'm just one person. Listen to your heart on the matter, not some curmudgeon like me.

Originally posted by HongHu
I'm sorry smacksims. Yes I have tried to use myself to influence people. But I cannot force everybody to think as I do. I do not have right to judge other people. I withdraw the statement that I would like to continue playing the HoF game.

I do think you are using people, because you are upset, and it's a good tactic, but a little mean really. You do have the right to judge people, for yourself. If you think people like me stink, ie, people that want action taken, then that's fine. I'll still respect you, and so will everyone else. It's only the manipulation of the forums to try to get your way that won't win many friends.

-S

[Snowflake]

I would like to apologize again, if it is the appearance that I have manipulated forums, please believe me it is not my intention. When the first time I said I'm quitting my pbem for Enigma, I was not trying to pursuade anybody to accept him simply because they do not want me to leave. I was trying to encourage Enigma to say what he wanted to say and what he said to me but is afraid of saying it to all of you, or at least I believed to be so.

This time my decision of withdrawing from the forum, is not because I want to influence anybody. It is because that I want to stop this vicious circle. I want to keep my own belief, but I do not want to cause any more fighting. The wisest thing is for me to withdraw, and for the forum to regain the normal order.

I have never thought people like you stink. And I have never wanted to get my way by manipulation. One does not have to win friends. He/she does what he/she believes is right, and not does things to please others or win friends. I understand you, and I'm sure you'll understand me.

[smacksim]

Originally posted by HongHu
{...} It is because that I want to stop this vicious circle. I want to keep my own belief, but I do not want to cause any more fighting. The wisest thing is for me to withdraw, and for the forum to regain the normal order. {...}

Sometimes people disagree on what to do about things. That doesn't mean they have to part ways necessarily. I do understand if you feel that the decisions to date are wrong, and wrong enough that you can't continue here in good faith. I respect that. But if you can understand the decisions and don't feel they are entirely wrong or unethical, then I just don't understand why you feel you have to leave.

'any more fighting'. I don't see that you will cause any more fighting by holding a belief that differs from others. You are not alone in your position, either. What if everytime we had disagreement, a whole group left the forums or ACDG? If others that agree with you follow suit, that's exactly what will happen in this case. I doubt that they will though, because, though they might disagree with the decisions made, they see the continuing value in the ACDG and forums in general.

The forums will regain their normal order. In fact, new Pbems and replacement pbems are starting up even as we speak. I'm sorry that you got so upset about this whole thing. And I really understand the urge to leave things that are difficult behind. I hope you will reconsider soon and come back, or not leave at all.

-Smack

[Kody]

***

[Hydro]

I'm tired of this.

This is the MOST un-fun PBEM I've ever been involved with. The tone started sour and has migrated to acidic.

I have no interest in character-less win-at-any-cost contests, nor in people I wouldn’t care to associate with in Real Life.

I'm leaving for a while. For the majority of the people in the ACDG of good character, and from whom I can learn a great deal, I apologize in advance. See you in a while.

Hydro

[smacksim]

Edit: About Hydro's post: This must be a mis-post? This is HH's thread, not a pbem. I replied though, so I'll keep it.

I guess I just don't understand this kind of reaction very well. If I did, I would probably not post so much. So I apologize for dampening the spirits around here, if I've done that.

From my perspective, yeah, a few Pbems are dead b/c what happened. This seems to me to be because of cheating and the difficulty in undoing that, not because people want to discuss the issues. Perhaps I'm wrong yet again. It's as if conflict and disagreement have to be ignored or repressed in order for people to not feel like 'This place sucks'. I find that unfortunate if true. A similar reaction is found in Tassadar's complaints about the bickering. It's not bickering. It's not needless whining. It's a few people trying to do what's right, and a few people trying to protect their friends and feelings. These are all good things it seems to me. Where have I gone astray?

-Smack

Kody, you sound like E_N is dead and you are on the chopping block. From what I can tell, E_N is just out of the ACDG. Am I missing something? I've thanked you several times for coming forward. I think you should be praised for your detailed concerns and trying to help E_N and at the same time respecting the other members of the forum. Is there some dark alliance of 'hate-Kody's' that are upset because you didn't come forward sooner? If there are, they should well consider how hard it was for you to come forward at all. -S

[Googlie]

No, Smack, you haven't gone astray

You - and Hydro - and I have been around long enough to see the various iterations of the E_N personality type (about 1 per year, I reckon) and the Community each time has had to coalesce around a decision to either ignore, endure, or extinguish, and the latter course was always for the good of the many.

Remember Doom? and HARDMAN? and even trippin' daily when he was high on his medication?

We are a small community of smac/xers - around 300 or 400 maybe - in a larger Apolyton community of 55,000 or so. We do care for each other and generally enjoy each others' company, and we rely on trust, fairplay and consideration and respect for each other's opinions. When these norms are broken, then naturally we "circle the wagons"

Now the past has passed. Let's strive going forward to make this ACDG3 a wonderfully satisfying gaming experience - in terms of gameplay, roleplaying, fiction writing, artwork and general teambuilding for all of us. And if a chastened, repentent, reformed Enigma_Nova re-appears as himself or in an alter-ego, then let's welcome the prodigal son with open arms

And if HongHu and Hydro are with him, then we will be blessed indeed

Googlie

[smacksim]

Well said Googlie Those are my sentiments too.

[Snowflake]

Thanks Googlie and smacksim. I've PMed you to explain why I had to withdraw. In fact I agree with most of what you have said. And I like to apologize once more, to those who are hurt by me in the process. I did not mean that at all.

Hydro, I do not know if you meant that you are leaving your pbems or the ACDG or what. If so please reconsider. The mere fact that people are debating here is because we do not tolerate character-less win-at-any-cost.

[MrWhereItsAt]

No more OPen Book, HH? PBEMs take no time at all!

/me throws up his hands in sheer exasperation

That's three PBEMs - THREE, that I had been hopeful for that have started and ended before they've even been properly started. If I didn't know better I'd say it was a conspiracy so I'd never manage one. Civ3 PBEMs don't have this problem, nor Civ2.

/me is very put out by this nonsense

To clarify, I can;t bring myself to be angry at you HH, but I can;t get much more irritated by this silly situation