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  • Torture Mod, Ongoing Discussions

    Following Tokamak’s and Smack’s leads, I decided to mosey on over to the Creation thread to start a running discussion for hammering out the details of the Splinter Mod, recently referred to as the Torture Mod….

    Torture Mod Summary

    Purpose – The very reason for the Mod’s existence is to address a number of severe game balance issues, and to provide a new platform for gamers to test themselves against. This new platform will be designed with all of the accepted “best strategies” and current game standards that I am aware of in mind, and to whatever degree I am able, those strategies currently viewed as most powerful and/or most favorable, will be hobbled, forcing players to seek out entirely new strategies.

    In the same breath, a second goal of the Mod is to bring a greater sense of realism to the game. While it is true that no one really knows how difficult or easy it would be to start a colony from scratch on an alien world, I get the distinct impression that it would be substantially harder than has been presented in the game. Added to that is the fact that we have history as a guide. The history of the ill-fated Roanoke Colony is very much on my mind as I contemplate changes to the alpha.txt file which drives the game.

    To that end, what follows is a summary of proposed changes, and numerous spots which are currently “blank” or “gray.” My hope is, that by posting the synopsis of proposed changes here, it will open up discussion on various specific parts of the game, leading to a much higher quality end-product than I could ever hope to get developing the Mod in a vacuum.

    Having said all that, read on, and feel free to make your thoughts and opinions known! The changes below were taken from the thread begun in the Strategy section, and already include modifications made thanks to comments there!



    Changes made to the following SE Table Entries:

    Frontier: -1 Growth, -1 Research
    Limited resources in frontier societies make growing a thriving community a daunting proposition. Additionally, with what resources that are available spent on meeting the bare necessities of the population, there is little left over for research.

    Simple: -1 Support, -1 Industry
    No formalized economic structure in place – Likely, the society relies heavily on a barter-based economy. The inefficiencies to be found in primitive economic systems are borne out by a decreased ability to support large numbers of field personnel, and by a fledgling or nonexistent industrial base.

    Survival: -1 Research, -1 Support
    With survival of the colony of paramount importance, resources must be carefully rationed. Thus, research—which may lead to fascinating but largely useless discoveries in a practical sense—and support for exploration—those colonists fit enough to explore are badly needed at home to keep things running—are curtailed.

    Baseline tech costs are tripled.

    Baseline SP costs are doubled, and costs for projects that provide free facilities are quadrupled.

    Supply Crawlers have been removed from the game. Reasoning – The Supply Crawler is essentially a “broken” unit….cheap to build, carrying no support cost, and very easy to abuse (upgrading to expensive configurations that no one would actually build to use in order to speed-build projects). Even raising the price of the unit AND requiring support for each one built would only delay the game breaking situations it is possible to create with the unit. Add to that the fact that the Crawler is essential to most accepted Builder strategies, and one of the goals of the Mod is to do away with or substantially weaken currently relied on strategies, and the decision to remove was easy.

    Clean Reactors have been removed from the game. Reasoning – Also a game breaker. +4 Support is unrealistic enough, but the ability to create an endless stream of units requiring no additional cost is obscene from a game balance standpoint. This one was an easy decision for me, because I rely on Clean Reactor Troops in my own SMAC/X games.

    Nerve Gas has been removed from the game. Reasoning – the AI never uses it, giving a decisive advantage to players who do. Also, it is highly “in favor” with classic Momentum/Rush Style games. Removing it as an option forces rushers to come up with something new and different.

    Choppers get a four (4) movement….price remains unchanged. Reasoning – Shining1 is a genius. The only thing I disagree with is his increase in baseline cost for the unit. By drastically reducing the number of moves, it’s utility is severely curtailed until the late game, especially in light of the slower tech discovery rate this Mod proposes.

    Growth: Has been modified in two ways. First, a –3 Growth rating no longer prevents growth, but instead, gives the expected –30% slower rate. Also, +6 growth gives 60% growth in bases. The ability to “Boom” has been removed from the game.

    Probes: The Probe has been moved to Information Networks. I can see the logic behind having Probes associated with Planetary Networks, but the logic runs counter to the actual game experience. The logic says that probes only begin infiltrating the datalinks of neighboring nations when they begin to interconnect across the planet. This would imply that a probe, sitting at his desk (or inside one of your own bases) could remotely connect to the rival faction’s datalinks and attempt to break in. This, of course, is not what the game experiences. Your probe has to get out and go to the target base with the express intention of infiltration. Given that, it makes sense in my mind that as soon as a faction has something to infiltrate (information networks), there’d very likely be someone who’s willing to try to do it, and this can be seen by looking at the history and development of the hacker culture here on earth. I’m also seriously considering removing the tech steal option from probes. This would profoundly impact the Momentum game, however, and I’m not sure if it can stand to be weakened further than it already has been. Also, moving Probes to InfoNets weakens PlanNets, which is a good thing, as the tech in its original form grants an SE choice, a secret project, and a new unit type….YOW!

    Carrier Deck now becomes available with the discovery of _____(tech yet to be determined, but somewhere close to Doctrine: Air Power). Reasoning – Navy has typically been a “weak leg” of the SMAC game. This is a move to strengthen Naval options and operations, and also to bring a truly outstanding unit ability into the game much sooner.

    Deep pressure hull now becomes available with the discovery of ____(tech yet to be determined, but somewhere close to Fossil Fuels). Reasoning – See Carrier Deck, above. It won’t make a bit of difference in SP games, but early subs in MP will add a whole new realm of uncertainty to the game, and require vigilant patrols.

    Terraforming: I have always been fairly happy with when and where terraforming options become available on the tech tree. Unless someone presents a strong argument for shifting certain options forward or back, I’m inclined to leave the terraforming options as they are.

    Secret Projects: A number of these will be disabled. The ones on the list are broken or distorted in my view, and a number of strategies are based solely around some of them. The current list of projects to be disabled or changed is as follows:

    Weather Paradigm: Not disabled, but pushed back to Ecological Engineering. Note that this DOES remove some of the free terraforming effects from the equation, but it still retains value thanks to the shorter terraforming times.

    Cloudbase Academy: Disabled. I don’t think there will be many disagreements that the CBA is one of the most overpowered project in the game, if not the king of the heap.

    Empath Guild: Disabled. It has a distorting factor where votes are concerned, and free infiltration is, IMO, too powerful, especially when coupled with the huge commerce windfall that the winner of this particular prize will most likely get.

    Planetary Transit System: Disabled to pull the teeth from the classic ‘borg strategy, and as a move to help keep Ashaandi’s group in check (see factions, below).

    Cloning Vats: Disabled. Pop booming is another broken aspect of the game, and one I’m trying hard to limit with this mod.

    Clinical Immortality: Moved forward to extend its game life. Current tech to move it to has yet to be decided.

    The Space Elevator: See Clinical Immortality, above.

    Singularity Inductor: See Clinical Immortality, above.

    Bulk Matter Transmitter: See Clinical Immortality, above.

    Telepathic Matrix: See Clinical Immortality, above.

    Net-Hack Terminus: See Clinical Immortality, above.

    OoO


    The (Revised) Splinter Factions:
    It is my hope to create seven unique and believable factions, each with a very different feel, and each providing a very different playing experience. While this is more-or-less true of the factions we’ve got now, I DO feel that more could have been done along those lines, and will attempt to pull it off here. The factions (or at least the latest iteration of them) appear below:


    The Heretics of Chiron: +2 Planet -1 Research, -1 Industry. Starts with one scout patrol. Tech at start: Centauri Ecology. No SE aversions. Robust: Planet. Begins the game with one Alien Artifact (stolen from the Believers on their way out the door!) All troops come with built in Trance ability.

    Design Notes: (More details on this group will be provided later…I’m at work and away from the files)

    Splinter Group from the Believers and driven out by Miriam Goodwinson, who tolerates no dissention in the ranks, and branded them heretics and traitors. Like the mother faction, they suffer a research penalty (growing up in a right wing, fundamentalist state which frowned upon research…some habits are hard to break), and they DO get a morale bonus…not as good as Miriam’s group at combat, but certainly not slouches, either, but that’s where the similarities end. The Heretics have much in common with the Gaian faction, regarding Planet as sacred and not to be despoiled. In truth, they see the new world as their Eden. A paradise to be melded with rather than fought. Because of this almost mystical worldview of Chiron, the Heretics spend much of their time communing with Planet, which leaves less time mundane pursuits (research), and they would certainly do nothing that would blemish the pristine nature of Chiron (Industry).

    The robust Planet rating limits the ecological damage that a switch to Market causes (not sure how the game rounds, so I don’t know if they’ll wind up with a 0 or 1 here), making defense against native life a much easier proposition. Add to that the free ability of their troops, and you get a fairly “worm-proof” faction, going a long way toward eliminating that as a viable avenue of attack against them, and it plays into their faction story as a whole. This latest “tweak” to the faction also addresses some previously expressed concerns that the faction was overpowered in the early game (they used to start with a pair of mindworms!). They’re still strong, but their built in troop ability is defensive in its nature, and they now have to take the time to find and capture worms, rather than starting with them, which should provide at least a bit of slowdown.


    OoO



    DataPirates – Led by Doctor Lawrence (Psycho) Freeling: +2 Probe, +1 Efficiency, -2 Police. Tech at start: Information Networks, Doctrine: Mobility (all those computer racing games!) Begin with 1 Former, Impunity: Knowledge. All troops come with built in polymorphic encryption built in.

    Design Notes: Splinter group from the University. Hacker/punk sub-culture that thrived in the University’s easily-to-infiltrate society. Essentially, I see these guys as being brats…lol…smart as hell (probe rating and their ability to find shortcuts to arrive at end results leads to the effie bonus) but essentially lazy (thus, no research bonus for them at all). They’d rather steal tech than work for it, and because of that, they’re understandably police shy. For the most part, their modifiers (both positive and negative) center around relatively low-powered segments of the game though (exception made for the small efficiency kick), and my initial reaction was that the DataPirates were something close to the Mod’s “baseline” faction, but then I took a look at their stats, just considering Knowledge (not taking any other SE settings into account) +2 Research, +2 Probe, +2 Efficiency. Pretty heinous stuff, but (hopefully) not unbalancing. The polymorphic encryption for their troops is a minor ability, and only helpful in limited situations, but still intriguing.

    OoO


    The Circle of Ashaandi - Led by Harrand Ashaandi: -3 Support, -3 Morale (Support hit comes from the inner-circle’s lavish lifestyle….soaks up resources, leaving relatively fewer available to support the actual running of the empire – Morale hit comes from troops serving out of fear. Also the fact that Ashaandi’s troops are not considered shock troops, but assassins…good at sneaking around, but lacking in hand-to-hand prowess.), Sharetech 3, Punishment Sphere in Every Base. No SE Aversions (but their native support hit means you’d have to drag them kicking and screaming to Dem!) Tech at start: Biogenetics, Applied Physics. Begins with one Former. All units come with “Blink” built in (Troops are actually assassins, good at infiltration as mentioned above).

    Design Notes: Breakaway group from the Hive. Should be a MOST interesting faction to play. No drone riots, EVER, regardless of…well, anything, and no need for control facilities. All this comes with a hefty price tag, however. While Democracy is not outright banned, running it would severely hinder the faction’s ability to do….much of anything requiring large numbers (or even medium sized numbers) of units. Also, expansion in the early game will have to be done with a great deal more care than the norm, considering that each unit requires two minerals for support. This should create a durable, but slower growing faction, in the same vein as the Pirates from Crossfire. The free spheres are nice, in the sense that Ashaandi’s group essentially plays a simplified game…one devoid of having to worry about balancing drone issues, but the 50% research penalty makes them the hands-down worst researchers in the game. As people begin to explore and make contact, the Sharetech ability will begin providing help, but with the slower moving tech tree, this might take a while, leaving the Assassins on their own for a number of years. I see them as having a relatively small army (no kidding, with their heinous support costs!), but one that is utterly devastating on the attack, with the ability to simply bypass base defenses. That, coupled with the fact that they can run Market and sneer at the drones should make the faction viable. When the faction reaches the point when they see their support drop to “only” –3, watch out! Suddenly their support costs are halved, and they can begin to field an increasing number of troops. In MP, either kill them early or make alliances against them!

    I was a bit leery of giving the group Biogen at start, which also gives them access to the HGP, but considering the nature and starting condition of the group, I doubt it’s something they’d be interested in, even from a denial standpoint. Gunning for it would tie up one of their (relatively fewer anyway) bases, further hobbling their early game expansion. Only play testing will tell for sure, but my early impression is that the HGP will be pretty much ignored by the group.


    OoO


    Honshu’s Militia - Led by General Honshu himself: +2 Morale, Votes halved in Planetary Council, Robust: Morale, -1 Efficiency, -1 Economy (training troops and keeping that wicked army up to date drains a great many resources from the economy, holding it down). Honshu begins with a rover, despite not having the tech for it. Tech at start: Doctrine Loyalty. No SE aversions.

    Design Notes: Breakaway group from Santiago. The only faction in the game that starts with a tech that has an attached SP—well, at least an SP that the faction in question would be interested in obtaining! Odds are good that they’ll get the Command Nexus, and if they do, they’ve got the hands-down best troops on Chiron. The hit to efficiency hurts their expansion slightly, and until they get Industrial Automation, they won’t make much money, but the fact that they can run Wealth with only a minor, “inconvenience” penalty makes the acquisition of IA extremely important to them. I see this group as the diametric of Ashaandi’s. Good, solid troops against slinky assassin type troops, and neither of them are particularly adept at research, though Ashaandi’s Sharetech surely gives him the edge there. As an aside, would their immunity to Morale hits make them immune to that funky smax gas that lowers morale??? Initially, I gave this group a Unity Chopper at game start, but considering the new limitations on that unit, I felt they would be better served by a Rover. Thoughts on this?

    OoO


    The Humanists - Led by “Mother” Hannah Washington: +2 Support (very team spirited society),
    -2 Morale (not much attention paid to training troops for war), free Children’s Creche with tech, Not allowed to run Police State or Power . Begins with Social Psych, 1 Scout, and 1 Former.

    Design Notes: The only faction in the game that starts with a support value of 0—given the way I intend to change the default SE settings--and this is an important edge, IMO. Add in the fact that they still get free minerals when switching to Dem, and they can expand almost as well as Ashaandi’s group (not quite as well of course, cos the drones WILL eventually catch them, but not bad at all. The free facility comes pretty early in the game, and is not terribly expensive to build manually, but I thought it was a nice perk for the group, and it undoes their morale hit from the moment they get Ethical Calc. The inability to run in a Police State stems from their PK origins, and plays well with the faction’s beliefs (essentially, while Lal is a humanitarian, “Mother” Washington is a humanist….similar but not the same. Still, they both have low regard for Police states and those who use them). The inability to run Power was added out of necessity, to prevent the group from getting to +4 Support. This is still possible in the late game (Living Refinery(?), but by then it’s impact won’t be as crushing.

    OoO



    (to be continued)
    -=Vel=-
    The list of published books grows. If you're curious to see what sort of stories I weave out, head to Amazon.com and do an author search for "Christopher Hartpence." Help support Candle'Bre, a game created by gamers FOR gamers. All proceeds from my published works go directly to the project.

  • #2
    The Builder’s Coven - Led by Professor Franklin Pavel: +1/+1/+1 From Fungus tiles, Free Psi-Gate in every base, +1 Planet, -1 Economy, -2 Growth. Tech at start: Centauri Ecology, 1 Scout. Not allowed to run wealth.

    Design Notes: Breakaway group from Dee. Dr. Pavel’s group shares a love of Planet with the faction he broke from, but where Dee would rather spend her time communing with Planet, the Doctor’s group strives to unlock the mysteries of the monoliths, and the alien culture that was obviously once here. As such, a great deal of their time has been spent studying the Monoliths, and the Psi-gate at every base is meant to be the “human constructed equivalent” of the Monolith—in the fanfic I’ve written about Chiron, Monoliths were (among other things) rapid transport systems used by the aliens to move around Planet. Thus, the Psi Gate represents mastery over that particular aspect of the technology for this group). Besides, I think the Psi Gate is a pretty cool, though under used facility, and it has intriguing possibilities for the group, both offensively and defensively. The growth penalty was meant to slow them down (they get LOTS of productivity from fungus tiles), and the econ penalty really MEANS something (unlike in Honshu’s case), as the Coven is unable to cling to Wealth to be rid of that particular negative.

    OoO


    The Energy Masters - Led by Phillipe Christo: -1 Research, +1 Efficiency +2 Police, 2% Interest on money in the bank, Starting Tech: Industrial Base, Centauri Ecology. No SE aversions. Free Energy Bank at every base, and Energy masters are immune to negative impacts of their police rating (private, heavy-handed security forces for the wealthy are everywhere!)

    Design Notes: A cash-rich, research poor faction, which is something of an oddity. These guys care more about counting their energy credits than they do about gaining additional tech advances, and they start with the basics to do it with a vengeance. They’re good at building infrastructure, thanks to a combination of industrial might (not with a classical industry boost, but with the interest earned on credits, allowing for more and more rushes as wealth amasses) and economic know-how, expressed in the form of efficiency. These guys are masters of control, too, as their kick in effie allows them to run a police-oriented market and not worry a thing about drones! This puts them in a camp somewhat similar to Ashaandi’s where control is concerned, allowing them to focus on infrastructure to increase wealth and eliminate their research penalty, rather than worrying much about building drone control facilities.

    End Notes: I’m definitely interested in hearing more comments about the factions in their present form! If you feel a twist or tweak is in order, by all means, let me know! We’ll keep hammering out the details here on this thread, and the end result will be….tough. Very tough indeed!

    Synopsis, faction-by-faction (at game start)
    Heretics: -2 Support, -1 Growth, -3 Research, -2 Industry, +2 Planet, +1 Morale
    Pirates: -2 Support, -1 Growth, -2 Research, -1 Industry, +1 Efficiency, -2 Police, +2 Probe
    Ashaandi: -5 (!) Support, -1 Growth, -2 Research, -1 Industry, -3 Morale
    Honshu: -2 Support, -1 Growth, -2 Research, -1 Industry, -1 Econ, +2 Morale
    Humanist: 0 Support, -1 Growth, -2 Research, -1 Industry, -2 Morale, -2 Police
    Coven: -2 Support, -3 Growth, -2 Research, -1 Industry, +1 Planet, -1 Econ
    Masters: -2 Support, -1 Growth, -3 Research, -1 Industry, +1 Efficiency, +2 Police

    Classic Crossfire “broken” techs (If I’m missing some, please chime in and help me fill in the blanks!)
    It was pointed out in another thread that there are just some techs that are overpowered, and others that are….well….just this side of useless.

    By “spreading around” the abilities granted throughout the course of the game to different techs, we will come closer to equalizing the overall strengths of techs overall, and further slow the development of the game down (which, IMO, is a good thing!). We’ll start with the overpowered techs, and then move to the 98 pound weaklings.

    Overpowered Techs:
    1) Industrial Automation
    2) Doctrine: Air Power
    3) MMI
    4) Fusion
    5) Bio-Engineering (Clean)
    6) Planetary Networks

    (Again, I don’t have the tech list in front of me, so I’m sure there are more….if you have a “ringer” for the overpowered list, feel free to chime in!)

    Industrial Automation:
    The more I think about it, the more tempted I am to simply take crawlers out of the equation. Even if I raise the price AND require support, the basic problems with the unit would still remain….true, those things would mean it’d take longer for them to be notable, but it would happen in the end. I think the crawler has to go, but it’s not as simple as that. In order to fill the gap, I think that the orbital stuff should be brought forward dramatically, perhaps allowing for hydro-sats as early as fossil fuels (the ability to launch multi-staged rockets to the upper atmosphere), but again, we’re “bunching” abilities by doing that. Ideas on exactly where we could start making orbitals available?

    Fusion:
    IMO, Fusion is okay where it is….even a dead beeline for it will take you a while to reach it. I like its overall position on the tree (though it could be argued that getting Fusion Reactors, Engineers, AND Fusion Labs from that one tech is a bit over powering….perhaps then, engineers could be pushed to another, weaker tech?)

    Also in the mod, I think I’ll make the general assumption that the military plays a fairly large role in research (primarily as a source of funding). Thus, when new breakthroughs occur, the military gets them first. As such, the fusion reactor will remain with the Fusion tech, but the Fusion Lab might get pushed back to the next D-level tech on the tree. Don’t know, but that’s kinna my thinking.

    Likewise, to help even out the gap difference between fusion -> Quantum and Quantum -> Singularity, I’ll move the Quantum reactor forward (again, the military gets it first), and leave the Converter where it is….how’s that sound?

    Air Power:
    This could be undone as a “power play” by simply making AAA tracking come well before the planes…ideas for what tech to move AAA tracking to? (since mil algos already has Power attached to it, we could leave it as is, and simply move AAA to some weaker tech, further down on the tree).

    MMI:
    In the mod, choppers will be severely limited in their movement, and the CBA won’t exist, leaving the Cyborg Factory and the (weakened) chopper chassis with the tech. In my mind, it’s certainly an attractive tech still, but not the game breaker it once was.

    Bio-Engineering:
    Clean exits stage left, making this a good, but not a game breaking tech.

    Planetary Networks
    IMO, overpowered in the original game because it allowed for Probes, Planned, and a SP, all in one tech. Two freebies on a tech seems okay, but three’s pushing it, especially when one of them is a very powerful SP, and another is one of the most versatile units in the whole game. I plan to address this problem by moving probes down on the tech tree, making them available as soon as Information Networks are available (see elsewhere in this document for additional notes on this).

    Specific Questions:
    Given all of the above changes, and in an effort to find a non-game breaking substitute for Crawlers, I want to make orbital stuff available sooner, but I’m not yet clear on exactly what I’m looking for.

    1) What tech do we make hydrosats available? (should be something in the neighborhood of Air Power, IMO)

    2) Energy sats? (perhaps something along the same timeframe as Fusion??)

    3) Mineral sats? (1-3 techs after Energy??)

    4)As mentioned earlier in the document, I’m looking to increase the viability of the “Chiron Blue” strategy, by making navy a more potent force, early on. Thus, I’m shopping for opinions on exactly what tech to make Carrier Deck and Deep Pressure Hull available. I’d like to see them come online at around the same timeframe as fossil fuels/air power, but have no specific techs in mind at this time. Ideas here?

    5) Quantum reactors need to be available for troops much sooner than they are. Ideas for tech there?
    6) To help further counter the air power threat in the game, and make it an even less attractive beeline, AAA Tracking needs to be made available sooner than the planes themselves (the development of primitive radar would make it possible, even if attack jets are only theoretical at that point). I’m thinking opti-comps for this, how’s that sound?


    More stuff to be added as discussions unfold!

    -=Vel=-
    (taking careful notes for the mod!)
    The list of published books grows. If you're curious to see what sort of stories I weave out, head to Amazon.com and do an author search for "Christopher Hartpence." Help support Candle'Bre, a game created by gamers FOR gamers. All proceeds from my published works go directly to the project.

    Comment


    • #3
      How have you affected what the various levels of SE do? For example, how did you get -3 GROWTH to slow, rather than stop, population growth? Or +6 GROWTH to not pop boom? I was under the impression that these were hardwired into the program, and their presence in alpha.txt was simply for information. I don't think changing those lines in alpha.txt changes game play.

      I agree with you about the unrealistic ease of colonization though. I'm close to finishing my own, much simpler mod along the same lines--Harsh Planet. Quite a bit of my work involves the Worldbuilder segment of alphax.txt, getting maps that don't allow ICS and yet remain AI friendly (most of my gaming is SP). I'll post when complete.

      Comment


      • #4
        Hey man….the short answer is….I haven’t yet….LOL…right now, all of this stuff is just proposed. I saw the Growth thing in the Alpha.txt and assumed it could be tweaked. If it turns out that it can’t be, I’ll need to do something else (perhaps assign a default –1 growth penalty to every faction), and of course, I’ll need to reduce the Coven’s growth penalty to compensate for not being able to stop –3 Growth from “freezing” the population size.

        The general plan is to get everything mapped out here, using the discussions here to alter it as needed, then write up a bare bones synopsis of the stuff to change and use that as my roadmap when I crack open the alpha.txt file.

        I’m curious to see your Mod when you finish with it by the way! Having only recently gotten into the guts of this stuff, I’m fascinated by it!

        -=Vel=-
        The list of published books grows. If you're curious to see what sort of stories I weave out, head to Amazon.com and do an author search for "Christopher Hartpence." Help support Candle'Bre, a game created by gamers FOR gamers. All proceeds from my published works go directly to the project.

        Comment


        • #5
          Vel, glad to see you over here, and NICE SUMMARY (I'm having an All caps kinda day). While I busily hammer out my version of the game in secret, it's nice to see what you've done. If you'd like a copy or notes about what I'm doing I'll be glad to send them, but I'm trying to perfect it before I post it as a beta, and playable version.

          Anyways, one thought I had about your mod, which I've been variously considering for my own would be to aim for putting the most-playable difficulty in the middle, rather than at the Transcend End. I know it'll complicate game testing, and might not be possible, but by making the game tough and playable at Librarian level, the upper two levels would make for easy scenarios where the AI is almost surely going to win. Along those lines would be considerations about:

          1. Drones..these are far less at lower levels.
          2. AI Growth and Industry and Research
          -can the AI deal with your harsh-planet at lower levels, or does it need the *3 benefits it gets at Transcend?

          Just an additional vertical dimension to consider, or not.

          -Smack
          Visit Aldebaran:Aldebaranweb

          Comment


          • #6
            Another techincal hurdle that need to be dealt with...

            The problem with factions getting free facilities and unit abilities is that they have to have the prerequisite tech, first. This means that the Ashaandi, for example, won't get their powers until AdvMilAlg and Matter Transmission. That's too late in the game.

            There are two basic approaches to this problem...

            1) You can pull these abilites down into the earlier techs. Not too apealing, because then it becomes available to everyone (although not for free).

            2) You can have the faction in question receive the requiste tech at the start. Intially, that sounds like it would be a disaster for gameplay, but it doesn't have to be like that. Some gentle massaging of the tech tree can fix things up for you.

            To illustrate, I'll show you what I did in my own mod. I wanted the AI to start with Clean Reactors, but didn't want to make them available any sooner than normal. I created a new tech, called "Adiabatic Chambers," and moved Clean Reactors there.

            AdCham has Bio-Engineering has a prequiste, and therefore occupies almost the same spot on the tech tree as before. The important thing is that AdCham is a dead-end tech, that is, it doesn't lead anywhere. I could then safely give this tech to the AIs without starting them out halfway up the tree.

            An approach like this would work well for you, especially since you want to spread out the goodies between techs more.

            Comment


            • #7
              In the faction editor, I'm pretty sure it is possible to start factions out with their free facilities from turn one, and likely abilities are the same. Free facility(prereq) gives the facility upon the discovery of the needed tech, whereas free facility gives the facility from the beginning of the game.
              The modifications look great, the factions look balanced and extremely cool. I can't wait for the mod to be completed!

              Comment


              • #8
                I hate to see crawlers go. In fact, in a slow population growth game, it seems like there should be something to bring in production since you can't work very many squares.

                I didn't know the trick about upgrading the things to speed Project building, that does seem like a cheat. How about this:

                Disable the Supply Crawler "module" (under #Weapons in alphax). But keep the unit (#Units). That way you get the basic unit, but-theoreticaly- not the opportunity to upgrade or its use in the Workshop. (This is what I did with Choppers in Harsh Planet. Seems to me they shouldn't be anything but scout vehicles and a way to knock off non-combat units, so the only Chopper is the Unity scout chopper--with its movement _increased_).

                Unfortunately, b/c of bug, I believe there is an underhanded way to get around the 'no workshop' restriction. Would a house rule take care of that?

                Comment


                • #9
                  Hi Velocyrix.

                  I won't even attempt to respond to your messages in detail, as there is just too much to digest. I have had SMAC/X for about a year now and just started playing PBEM in January. I won my first solo game at transcend difficulty level last weekend, so I'm no expert.

                  What I read in your messages looks pretty good to me for the most part. Here's why. In my recent victory at transcend level, I wound up in second position on the faction dominance graph at about half the level of the Believers faction. I was able to hold my border militarily, which gave me time to implement the following strategy.

                  When the Believers commenced work on the Voice of Planet, I immediately switched all non-frontier bases (except for 3 interior bases) from whatever infrastructure they were currently working, to producing aerospace centers. Those that already had aerospace centers began producing satellites exclusively. I let each base produce the same satellite type over and over till the end of the game. I was producing about equal numbers of each type of satellite and ODPs all the rest of the way. When the other bases completed construction of their ACs, I had them begin making satellites too. I rush built at least one of each kind of satellite every turn the rest of the game.

                  I switched the 3 special interior bases mentioned previously to infinite crawler build. As you might imagine I already had several crawlers already at work.

                  When the VOP was completed and all factions had started the Ascent to Transcendance, I moved all existing crawlers to the base where I was working on the Ascent and cashed them in immediately. Then each turn after that I always rush built the crawlers at my 3 special bases and immediately moved them to the Ascent base for cash conversion. I then used remaining energy credits to build as many satellites as I could in the other bases.

                  My frontier bases handled all combat production.

                  I transcended shortly thereafter.

                  Needless to say I completely agree with your decision to eliminate the supply crawler from the game in your mod. Not because it becomes nothing more than secret project 'scrip', but because, quite frankly, I find the supply crawler to be the single ugliest unit in the game.

                  Therefore... Death to all Crawlers!

                  Also, based on the game experience I just described, I suggest caution concerning your idea to move satellites to an earlier stage in the game. They can become an overwhelming advantage when produced in bulk - and its sort of a subtle process, since you don't see a carpet of ice cream cone crawlers scattered about the countryside.

                  Some suggestions. Let the satellites come in earlier, as you suggest, except for the ODPs. Keep those back till the land/sea/air triad is well developed. Then the peaceful industrial factions - if you can find any - have some realistic possibility of developing a viable space presence. Increase the cost of the satellites so that it becomes a major event to put one in orbit in the early and middle game and quite a bit harder in the late game than allowed by the current setup. You may also want to key the availability of each type of satellite to its own appropriate kind of tech so that factions must make 'tough' choices about the techs they need to research to produce the type of satellite they want to bring into play first.

                  Just some thoughts.

                  Good luck with the mod. It sounds like you have the experience to make good judgements about the 'unbalancing' factors that exist in the game. I hope you will post regular progress reports as I will follow them closely.

                  - Scipio
                  Last edited by Scipio Centaurus; July 19, 2001, 00:54.
                  Delende est Ashcrofto

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Hey guys, and Smack….an excellent idea….one that had not occurred to me….I like it! If we could make “Thinker” the default level, then….::shiver:: OMG, Transcend (esp. Transcend TECHSTAG…OUCH…--joining you in the all caps!)

                    Toka, I thought it was possible to give a free facility or ability without requiring the pre-requisite techs….if no, then I’m in for a bit of wrestling with the alpha.txt….UGH…but if that’s what I gotta do….::sigh::

                    Gallagher: Yeah…believe me, as an AVID (there go those caps again! Lol) user of and believer in crawlers, I know exactly what you mean, but to compensate we’ve got the following:
                    1) Genejack facility moved closer in (a new idea brought forth by Ned!) – This gives you heightened productivity with a tradeoff….more minerals, more drones. I like that, and it fits nicely with the overall theme of the mod.

                    2) Early acquisition of orbital stuff. While this is not nearly as efficient as crawling goods, it’s not a bad alternative.

                    Essentially, you can get MOST of the benefits of crawling, but none of the game breaking aspects. And, everything is much more investment oriented, requiring more minerals to be spent to get the benefits, and significant maintenance costs.

                    Scipio: Thanks for the compliment bud….I’m sure gonna try to keep everything in balance, and hopefully, when completed, this new mod will add a totally new angle to the game (my fingers are crossed about that!).

                    I like the idea about keeping ODP’s relatively further back on the tree (but still making sure they’re available before PB’s! Yikes!). The cost of sats….I’m not sure there. Right now, one of the reasons it’s so easy to build sats by the late game is the fact that you’ve got an inflated mineral suite thanks to lots of supply crawlers. Kiss those g’bye, and it’s probably a good deal harder to get an orbital into orbit. Just in case though, you’ve put the bug in my ear about it, and if testing shows that it’s still too easy to get the sats launched, then we’ll add 20-30% to their cost (padded NASA budgets?), and that should do it.

                    Sats vs. Crawlers: Lots of good news on that front. Sats are vastly more expensive than crawlers, and while they carry no upkeep costs, their impact on bases is limited by that base’s size. If I build a base late game now, I’ll generally build 3-4 crawlers to go with it…that way, BOOM, it’s instantly got a giant industrial capacity for it’s size, and is able to do it’s infrastructure work very quickly. But with sats, a size one base only gets one FOP from each category of sat you’ve got in orbit. Helpful, yes…but not devastating like crawlers can be.

                    -=Vel=-
                    The list of published books grows. If you're curious to see what sort of stories I weave out, head to Amazon.com and do an author search for "Christopher Hartpence." Help support Candle'Bre, a game created by gamers FOR gamers. All proceeds from my published works go directly to the project.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Vel, JustinSane is correct. You can give facilities without the prereqs. I forget the exact wording--I always use the faction editor. And I'm pretty sure you can do the same with unit abilities.

                      btw, could someone tell me why no one likes the faction editor? I almost never have any trouble with it, but maybe I'm doing it wrong. Or maybe I'm just not noticing what's not working.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Growth: Has been modified in two ways. First, a –3 Growth rating no longer prevents growth, but instead, gives the expected –30% slower rate. Also, +6 growth gives 60% growth in bases. The ability to “Boom” has been removed from the game.
                        Velocyrix, how do you do that? I really wanted to do that to zap pop booms rather than the SE/players growth mods I had to resort to.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Vel

                          here are some suggestions...i have yet to test these ideas, but i think they would be very fitting

                          Frontier Politics
                          -1 police, -1 support, -1 efficiency
                          Early governing bodies on Chiron verged on the edge of anarchy, these ad hoc commitees had problems establishing order, raising a organized militia, and administering the colonies.

                          Simple Economics
                          -1 economy, -1 industry, -1 growth
                          The early economic systems on Chiron resembled a barter economy, where the industrial infrastructure had yet to be developed; this hampered economic growth and industrial output of the colonies

                          Survival Values
                          -1 morale, -1 research, -1 probe
                          In the early years on Chiron there were no available resources to pour into the military, education, or covert activities.

                          None Future Society
                          -2 planet, -1 support, -1 efficiency, -1 morale
                          Chiron held many secrets that would take time for humanity to unlock, also only the most advanced implementations of social engineering could deploy resources in the most beneficial configurations.

                          Cybernetic Future Society
                          +2 Efficiency, +2 Economy, +2 Research, -3 Growth
                          Connecting with planet is highly unlikely for a machine based society, also the police rating is too easily overcame.

                          Eudaimonic Future Society
                          +2 Planet, +2 Growth, +2 Industry, -3 Morale
                          The -2 morale was the same penalty as wealth, with eudaimonic being more than twice as good as wealth; plus communing with planet seems more reasonable for people striving to achieve fulfillment and self enlightenment.

                          *all prototypes should cost 100% more instead of 50% more
                          *retool strictness in the alpha text should be set to 3=never free
                          *retool exemptions should be set to 0
                          *Defend vs. mobile in rough should be 25%
                          *Terraforming Unit cost changed from 6 to 8 (or whatever it would take so that terraformers cost 3 bars instead of 2)

                          and the most important suggestion of all for making SMAC challenging is (drum roll please)...

                          *Nutrient intake requirement for citizens set to 3 instead of 2

                          by increasing the nutrient intake for citizens
                          *it eliminates the forest and forget strategy
                          *forces players to use advanced terraforming options
                          *makes it possible for a base with a recycling tank to starve
                          *generally makes colonization of Chiron more difficult
                          *destroying terraforming is now more devastating
                          *enhances seige warfare

                          i think all of these changes are appropriate for your mod vel and i think they could help to enhance it...but what you have so far looks good
                          Last edited by korn469; July 22, 2001, 02:43.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Hiya Vel,

                            First up - great work on the mod - keep it up!

                            Secondly, a quick note on the placing of ODPs. Making themavaiable before PBs, IMO, would be a mistake. Put simply, this would eliminate PBs as a viable force, in one of two ways:

                            - The only viable use of PBs would be for someone way ahead in tech - they'd be used to kill a smaller faction off, rather than as a balance issue
                            - Otherwise, PBs would become virtually obsolete as an option.

                            Now, I like PBs. Not only as a game-balancer, but also 'cause they're fun - especially in MP.

                            Instead, what I propose is this:

                            If you're going to keep PBs & the missile chassis at Orbital Spaceflight, move ODPs to Advanced Spaceflight. Why? This would mean that in specialised circumstances, a PB would be viable, if a smaller factin put enough resources toward it (i.e. a bunch of probesto steal the tech.) Not only that, but your lack of crawlers mean such things are a devil to rush in any case - meaning the PB would otherwise essentially become obsolete.

                            In summary, whilst I agree that the PB-ODP gap is way too large as it is, PBs must come before ODPs - even if it's only a couple of techs - simply to make them something resembling a viable option. Removing PBs from the game altogether would be a mistake, IMO - just to throw an extra dimension into the game, if nothing else.

                            Just my opinion, anyway.

                            Korn - great work! Agreed wholeheartedly on the nuts issue - I actually had a go doing that (a long time ago, mind you) and for one thing - it made the AI terraforming see a lot more sensible. The one single thing I would disagree with is your 'None Future Society' penalties. The -2 planet in itself would render any faction's +ve planet rating obsolete until the late game - IMO future societies should simply be bonuses, as they don't come until the late game.
                            We're back!
                            http://www.civgaming.net/forums

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              mark13

                              The -2 planet in itself would render any faction's +ve planet rating obsolete until the late game
                              this is exactly what i had in mind...i think it is ridiculous to think that any faction, (even the gaian) would be able to almost immeadiately develop telepathic abilities that would enable them to capture mindworms...the gaians with their +1 planet and the +2 from going green would be able to capture mind worms and have a positive psi attack rating before late game, but without the manifold nexus none of the other factions would be able to do this

                              plus the -2 planet would make native mindworms all the more dangerous

                              throwing in -1 support and -1 efficency also makes expansion and conquest harder...plus if you notice in my revised SE choices every category has a negative

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