[C4:AC] City Maintenance or Civ4 model?

[Gavin Berchler]

As you know, the current model in civ4 is that individual maintenance is no longer paid, however cost per city is increased depending on number of citys owned.

Which model should be followed for the smac mod?

my personal opinion is that the idea that more cities increase the costs of faction is more sensible, however maintenance should cost more in a city with 5 buildings, than a city with just 1 building.

Arguably, the thinking behind the civ4 play is that maintnence and support is paid by those getting the benefit ie the population and the faction only obtains taxes and pays for infrastructure.

Would love to hear some opinions...

[Maniac]

My problem with city and civic maintenance is double:

1) A strategy which consists of building lots of small cities becomes impossible. While such a thing would fit for for example the Cult or Gaians.

2) In Civ4 you need sufficient commerce to pay for your cities and civics no matter what strategy you're following. In SMAC however you could for example play the Hive and concentrate only on nutrient and minerals. This would be impossible in Civ4.

So I think the Civ4 system sucks.

[Kuciwalker]

my personal opinion is that the idea that more cities increase the costs of faction is more sensible, however maintenance should cost more in a city with 5 buildings, than a city with just 1 building.

Why? A larger city with more facilities is probably more self-sufficient. It costs more resources to support small mostly unindustrialized communities - see Greenland.

1) A strategy which consists of building lots of small cities becomes impossible.

That's called "infinite city sprawl" and that was the point of the change.

[Kuciwalker]

It's quite simple, if founding a city is always a net benefit (as it was in every Civ game prior to Civ 4, and in SMAC) then there is never a reason not to build more cities and the optimal strategy is always one of constant expansion. Rising city maintenance costs is a simple and elegant system for making city founding an actual strategic decision.

[Maniac]

Yes, in prior civ games constant expansion was too good a choice. However Civ4 has gone too extreme in the other direction. Now the only good choice is to make all your cities large. So you still have only one choice. I don't see what has improved here? One choice is no choice.

What would be really good strategy if you had an actual choice between two good things: vertical or horizontal expansion.

Anyway, there are plenty of other ways to discourage constant expansion besides city/civic maintenance. The most important thing Civ4 did was simply increasing the cost of settlers. The higher the cost of settlers, the longer it takes for a new city to start becoming lucrative, and the better it becomes to invest more in already existing cities instead.

Another way would be to introduce rebels. Unhappy cities would produce 'barbarian' units who would try to throw off your yoke. A good way to prevent snowball conquests and exponentially increasing power.

[Gavin Berchler]

Thanks for the talk guys... It was really informative. Both make some really great ideas. I think that realism dictates that fewer larger cities would be optimal in ac too. New cities would have a far higher cost to form up and to build. Humans are much more restricted on planet.

Smaniac, you make some really great points too. I think it might be a factional choice which strategy could work, perhaps in the hive we can use modifiers to make that strategy optimal, or create a project or something which would make that strategy more successful (planetary transit??) I think for the moment, we will stick to the civ 4 method, and the add in the other strategy options specified by maniac.

I seem to be the only one doing the mod at the moment, so if you are keen on helping out... there is lots of things to do, particularly on the units front......lots of xml modding!

[Kuciwalker]

Originally posted by Maniac
Yes, in prior civ games constant expansion was too good a choice. However Civ4 has gone too extreme in the other direction. Now the only good choice is to make all your cities large. So you still have only one choice. I don't see what has improved here? One choice is no choice.

The choice is when to expand. And you're wrong anyway, in fact it's often a very good idea to keep cities small. Smaller cities grow faster so whipping is more powerful.

Anyway, there are plenty of other ways to discourage constant expansion besides city/civic maintenance. The most important thing Civ4 did was simply increasing the cost of settlers. The higher the cost of settlers, the longer it takes for a new city to start becoming lucrative, and the better it becomes to invest more in already existing cities instead.

Not when you have a corruption model. Then it's usually worthless to invest in anything more than a core city.

Another way would be to introduce rebels. Unhappy cities would produce 'barbarian' units who would try to throw off your yoke. A good way to prevent snowball conquests and exponentially increasing power.

Rebels are far more annoying and far less elegant than simple economic limits.

[GeoModder]

Originally posted by Gavin Berchler
I seem to be the only one doing the mod at the moment, so if you are keen on helping out... there is lots of things to do, particularly on the units front......lots of xml modding!

Have you asked anyone to create custom citygraphics for SMAC? Nowadays there's a great modeler, Chamaedrys, creating alternative citysets for Civ4.

[Gavin Berchler]

No, I haven't however there is an open door to anyone who would like to help out. Geo, if you know this modeler, I would be grateful if you can ask him to help out. Otherwise I will ask him myself.

If you or anyone would like to participate please feel free to do so. I have given enough threads here, that there is enough scope for people from novice to seasoned modders to join in.

[GeoModder]

Well, if you have more or less clear pics available on how the SMAC bases look, I'll be more then happy to hand them over to Chamaedrys and ask if he's interested in modelling them.

As on xml'ing for the mod, atm I'm still busy with homing my 'skills' on a petproject of mine. After that is finished I might find time for this mod.

[Gavin Berchler]

Thanks for the help with the artwork. I look forward to when you can help out. ...

Here is the artwork....

http://download.yousendit.com/365160EC224B13C6