[C4:AC] Features? (Religion, resources, etc.)

[Rubin]

Originally posted by Blake
However I still like the idea of having a "unique building" for each ideolgy because it increases the investment factor - allowing for more impact overall if the player is willing to put in the investment.
Mind you maybe an ideology could have a certain impact just for existing, but by tying the benefit to further investment it helps make the ideology tech less uber.

Unique builings tied to ideologies can be used to further specialize and enhance a faction's strength and strategy (research for University, military for Spartans, etc. Spartans could get a free promotion from a building while Drones could get a production bonus, etc.). This assumes that the unique buildings are are tied to technology branches.

I am still leaning towards preset ideologies tied to the factions by default. Technologies could then be required to utilize the ideology (something like the restriction lifting technologies in SMAC/X).

...and I still think "ideologies" in the mod should be a less powerful tool than "religions" in Civ4.

Originally posted by Blake
Resources. I'm not sure about these... we could try and come up with a set of resources (possibly with technobabble names) but I think I'd rather stick with the nut/min/energy resources, maybe with more diversity, but without the resource trading factor.
Still we could have things like "Longlivity Vaccines" provided by the wonder, which provides +1 happiness and so the owner can export that benefit for cash, that'd be pretty cool. So I think we can certainly make use of the resource model at points.

Good idea on the Longevity Vaccine!

I am inclined to agree on the resource issue. Resource modifiers (happiness and health) don't have to be present in the mod. But with increased EC requirements of units and possibly facility maintenance costs I think economic and production resources do make sense. Unlike happiness and health, economic resources are very flexible. You can turn the extra economy into psych (less drones), research or unit upgrades. Trading economic resources makes sense too---commerce between factions could even be prohibited until the factions start exchanging economic resources.

Economic resources could further be augmented by certain facilities or technologies, e.g. Centauri Preserve could give an additional +1 commerce if a certain resource is available.

Production resources could be used to mainly reduce the cost of certain buildings and units (+10-25%). Or perhaps confer a bonus (e.g. free promotion) to certain units when the units are produced.

Originally posted by Maniac
The SMAC pollution system of fungus and especially mind worms was much more interesting because you had an economic problem which also caused military issues, which meant you had to use more aspects of the game.

This is a very good point!

[ForesterSOF]

Land Quality for Earth crops could also be a resource.

The Bread icons.

[Blake]

Economic resources does indeed sound like a good idea, since the possiblities are limitless:
Aluminum making aircraft cheaper.
Iron or copper allowing construction of a Metal Works, which provides +50% with Iron and +50% with Copper.
Fungal Gin providing +1 Happiness for Recreation Commons. [with a small chance of riots]

Very promising.


Okay here's another topic. SE. Like SE Industry, SE Probe, SE Morale etc. It would be entirely possible to reproduce these using the SDK allowing them to be specified in XML and attached to "Civics", leaders, wonders, buildings etc.
How many people would like to see a return of this? I really like how SE works in SMAC because it allows for powerful and interesting synergies and results in diverse playstyles between factions. Reproducing in CIV would be quite time consuming but I think it would be worth the effort. What do you think?

[Rubin]

Originally posted by Blake
Okay here's another topic. SE. Like SE Industry, SE Probe, SE Morale etc. It would be entirely possible to reproduce these using the SDK allowing them to be specified in XML and attached to "Civics", leaders, wonders, buildings etc.
How many people would like to see a return of this? I really like how SE works in SMAC because it allows for powerful and interesting synergies and results in diverse playstyles between factions. Reproducing in CIV would be quite time consuming but I think it would be worth the effort. What do you think?

I would definitely wish for the return of the SE ratings!

I don't know how to implement it, though, but I'll be more than happy to help! Let's do it!

[GeoModder]

I agree with this. It links so much better to the "government choices" then.

[Kuciwalker]

Re: Religion/Ideology

Originally posted by Blake
1) An ideology can only be founded by it's faction, if another faction researches the tech first it has no special effect.
2) The ideology is founded upon researching or otherwise obtaining the tech.

What if you made it so that an ideology couldn't be founded if someone else got there first? Or if you then made the faction wait until a later tech for another chance to found?

[ForesterSOF]

Re: Re: Religion/Ideology

Originally posted by Kuciwalker


What if you made it so that an ideology couldn't be founded if someone else got there first? Or if you then made the faction wait until a later tech for another chance to found?

This would add an new strategy of researching an ideology before the proper faction gets it so when they do get it that faction gets no positive effect from having it.

[murielwasser]

I'm pretty sure that just having the ideology arise outside of its borders would give the same effect.

I'd be in favor of preserving the original seven SMAC factions as ideologies and having a less archetypal, but greater number of factions to play, if only so we can exploit C4's greater number allowable players per game. Or having that greater number of factions include the classic ones but not give any unique relationships to ideologies (in the religion-replacement sense); although I'd be certainly be in favor of giving various ideologies unique benefits* and allowing optimal faction-ideology combinations to arise emergently. I imagine I'm not in the majority in this, however.

*I'd suggest that the benefits (and possibly drawbacks) have to do with modifying the effects of various SEs. Even if we do keep the original seven factions with unique relationships to ideologies.

EDIT: everything here's already been suggested upthread, so just take this as an endorsement of the same.

[goldenerasuburb]

Ideologies as New Faction Catalysts

7 factions come off Unity: The Original 7. Then, given the right conditions, others can emerge.

The different cases in new factions include:
Splinter- Breaks off an existing faction
Revival- Rebuilding from the ashes of a destroyed faction.

What causes this? Well, in part, the ideologies.
Examples:

The University has two ideologies inhabiting his bases. There is a lot of unrest in his territory. A revolt occurs. Seen as the two ideologies are Technocracy and what ever the Peacekeeper's one was, The Data Angels are born, a combination of beliefs.

Say one group of citizens with a particular ideology, say Gaian Conservationism
are undergoing hard times, and this is assuming ideology can be placed on individuals and not just cities and entire factions. This can likely lead to a more radical faction, The Cult of Planet, or a less fadical faction is the starting ideology is already radical.

One faction has almost entirely destroyed. The old leader is dead. They have to move to a different area, try from land to sea. This could result in any one of the sea based faction versions of the land based, whether their goals be research, business, or protecting planet. Their goals the same, all that is changed is their means.

This can be accomplished by creating a sort of "faction tree"- determining what two ideologies +what conditions lead to what factions, or what conditions create a faction period.

I also have some additional Ideologies to add:

Xenophobia- Distrust of Planet Add Unity and of course the right conditions, you'd have a Former Faction. Or a former Faction can be added along with the first 7. Whichever works.

[ForesterSOF]

The splinter option is taken care of by the unhapiness factor for each city and then checking a box that lets cities flip or build flippping into the core.

[murielwasser]

What FSOF said.

I do think that mixing-and-matching ideologies, factions, and SEs is a good way to brainstorm new factions, though.

[goldenerasuburb]

The ideologies don't make it splinter, they determine what the new splinter faction is.

[Gavin Berchler]

I think we should disable religions and keep it simple for the moment. Its logical that religions should play a part, however this should be left to the final stage.


Regarding resources, we should leave them to what they are for earth, with the exception of the crops, and animals.

Both of which should be smac'd up.

Eg. corn wouldn't be found naturally on planet, however there must be some equivalent, we can call it planet-corn which is made up of a natural grass which is edible to us and can be ground down to make other foods.

Someone who is good at creative writing, should imagineer some of the crops and animals we find there.

[murielwasser]

Ideologies can be made less faction-specific and still remain iconic. Some will inevitably suit some factions more than others - presumably, here, our intuitions should meet the emergently optimal combinations in gameplay - and each will find itself slightly different as adopted by each faction (in game-world terms.)

This list can obviously be improved:

1) Hierarchy (Hive, Believers)
2) Equality (U.N., Drones)
3) Individuality (U.N., Morganites, Pirates)
4) Progress (University, Drones, CyCon)
5) Romanticism (Gaians, Cult, Believers)
6) Security (Spartans, Hive)
7) Transcendence (Cult, Hive, CyCon)

I'd probably entangle Ideology with culture and SE somehow; perhaps offering more culture or happiness for the right SE choices (but not enough to remove meaningful tension in them.) I don't know what tech choices should lead to what, especially as we haven't figured out the tech tree (although since the earliest techs are the ones least likely to suffer revision, I figure it shouldn't be to hard to do a rough draft.)

[Gavin Berchler]

Muriel.. I like the idea a lot.

how would the ideology spread...ie what would you rename the missionary and the other religious buildings..

shirine (for holy city)
temple
monastry
cathedral..

please give some more details.. but its seem really logical!

What would happen if the religion for one spread into another... woudl we have individualist morganites? or materialistic cults?