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Short dissertation on Land Transports

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  • Short dissertation on Land Transports

    The Land Transport, long championed by Ogie Oglethorpe, has never caught on with the greater SMAC(X) Community, primarily because a) the unit is restricted in movement by -1, and b) the AI never used the units well.

    After much experimentation I have come up with a version that is very useful, both to the AIs as well as human players. The following is the form as I have entered it into the #UNITS Section of the alpha(x).txt file:

    Troop Transport Mk1, Speeder, Laser, Synthmetal, 1, 0, 1, Mobile, -1, 000000000000000000000000


    AI Observations

    1) In the hands of the AI this unit works much better now (as opposed to other versions where the "Weapon" is the transport module) because this unit is given the "Combat" Plan, as well as an offensive weapon. This then means the AI will direct the unit to wherever combat is occuring. And if the unit encounters another non-transport unit along the way, then because this unit has the ability to "carry" one unit, it will then transport the unit along with it. If the Land Transport doesn't encounter any units on the way to the front, then the AI utilizes the Land Transport as it would a regular Combat Rover. Finally, because the unit isn't categorized as a "Land Transport" by the game (it considers it an offensive unit), then it is not inhibted by the -1 movement penalty!

    2) There is an algorhythm that governs AI unit movement that goes something like this:

    - if an AI unit is in sleep mode (such as a unit on a transport) and its movement comes before the transport, then the AI will pass that unit over for movement for the remainder of the turn, even if the transport then places the unit next to an attackable target.

    - if the transport moves first and it stops next to an attackable target, then the AI units in sleep mode will be awakened and will be able to attack that turn.


    Thus sometimes you will see an AI controlled Land Transport appear beside a base, but the unit its carrying won't attack. Other times it will.

    Paradox?
    If a Land Transport attacks something and the transport is destroyed, the unit it is carrying is destroyed as well. However if the Land Transport is attacked and destroyed, then the unit it was carrying will not be destroyed.

    Land Transports and the "Cost" function
    The AI loves to build cheap units, and will select these over more expensive units. However because transports can't carry transports, the AI then tends to create a glut of transports and not enough units to be carried by the transports. Thus it is better to "cheapen" a different combat unit that isn't a transport.


    Land Transports versus map size
    A unit that can move two squares and carry an additional unit is significantly overpowered on Small and Tiny maps (this is probably the reason that the developers gave the -1 movement to land transports in the first place). On Large and Huge maps this is probably more in line with being a balanced unit for the environment.

    What tech to associate Land Transports with?
    This is a very good and tough question. The unit I posted above is from a scenario where I am trying to tempt human players away from the traditional beeline to Ind Auto, so having a Laser Synthmetal unit (i.e. abilities associated with other Level One techs) is simply additional enticement, and is not very realistic for a balanced unit in the early game. Perhaps make the unit a 4/2/2 (cargo 1) available at Nonlinear Mathematics?


    D

  • #2
    thoughts

    When I first tried putting a transport on a land unit, I thought the -1 mov was terrible, so I've never used them. I can see now that if you do not have magtubes or elite units, this would be very useful when you have a lot of infantry to attack a base and you want to be the first to attack and hopefully take out a unit before yours is destroyed, especially if it is just a X-1-1 unit made only to attack. It can also be useful if you have some infantry terraformers. I usually have 4 to 6 of these, unless I am Santiago or end up getting mobility thru a pod or trading. You can get that road built in one less turn. There is the extra mineral cost to have a transport, so I'm not sure if its just better to disband it and make a rover former when you have the time, but who does? Well, there is a peacetime use for the land transport anyway. I'm not sure if I talked myself in and out of land transports. You know what, this is supposed to be in strategies section. Nevermind.
    Last edited by Darrell01; October 15, 2006, 14:24.

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    • #3
      Darsnan,

      This is a great news. A breakthrough in making AI use land transports.

      Re: Map size
      Do you think, that overpowering is because human players can make great use of it? From testing, can you tell, that benefits for AI are smaller? I remember coming to similar conclusions some time ago, when considering transports that would not have -1 move penalty.

      Air units vs land transports (some thoughts about strategy)
      Considering "chop and drop" tactics of fast vendetta campaigns, this has been considered for some time now a very powerful one. I think, recently, we start to have ways to balance it out. Giving AI many pre-defined AAA tracking units makes it to build (in my view) more such units, land and navy. With combination of 50% Alien Defence special bonus for AI, this makes air attacks not very successful in many cases. When you add perimeter defence (aerospace complex gives +100%), a base can easily defend itself against tacticals or copters with moderate offensive weapon. Main benefit of air units is how fast they can travel across the map omitting obstacles.
      I think that fast land transports may be considered as an alternative for air attacks.

      Darrell,

      The benefits of attacking an inland base by infantry (+25%) with full strength, due to land transport bringing it over to base vicinity, are very large in my oppinion. What if instead of transport+infantry one builds 2 infantry? I think, that 2 attacks 2/3 strength may often give worse results compared to 1 attack 100% strength, but this is worth trying in scenario editor and getting probability numbers. I'll check it.
      Mart
      Map creation contest
      WPC SMAC(X) Democracy Game - Morganities aspire to dominate Planet

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by mart7x5
        Re: Map size
        Do you think, that overpowering is because human players can make great use of it? From testing, can you tell, that benefits for AI are smaller? I remember coming to similar conclusions some time ago, when considering transports that would not have -1 move penalty.
        Humans will use the unit better, but I think the real reason it is overpowered on a small map is because on a Tiny/ Small map having a transport move 2 squares (or 6 on roads) then let loose a speeder means that this is a significant advantage for momentum Factions in the early game. So maybe "unbalanced" would be a better term here? Either way I do think the Land Transport I described above is not a good unit to have available on a Tiny/ Small map.


        Originally posted by mart7x5
        Air units vs land transports (some thoughts about strategy)
        Considering "chop and drop" tactics of fast vendetta campaigns, this has been considered for some time now a very powerful one. I think, recently, we start to have ways to balance it out. Giving AI many pre-defined AAA tracking units makes it to build (in my view) more such units, land and navy. With combination of 50% Alien Defence special bonus for AI, this makes air attacks not very successful in many cases. When you add perimeter defence (aerospace complex gives +100%), a base can easily defend itself against tacticals or copters with moderate offensive weapon.
        Kinda interesting how we seem to be migrating towards putting more pre-defined units into the #UNITS section of the alpha(x).txt file, which means less use of the Unit Workshop, eh?

        Originally posted by mart7x5
        I think that fast land transports may be considered as an alternative for air attacks.
        An interesting observation, and one I tend to agree with based on your comments above: Psi armored AAA Defenders, anyone? Anyways, bwe interesting to see if we can make this a reality, eh?

        D

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        • #5
          Good work, Darsnan. I thought I'd never live to see the day an AI actually used a land transport.

          Originally posted by Darsnan
          An interesting observation, and one I tend to agree with based on your comments above: Psi armored AAA Defenders, anyone?
          Would they be pummeled by artillery as mindorms are, or is that a consequence of being native?

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Leon Trotsky
            Would they be pummeled by artillery as mindorms are, or is that a consequence of being native?
            What are mindorms?

            Anyways, I think the overall point I and mart7x5 are trying to make is that hopefully we can make some inroads against the traditional "chop-n-drop" strategy.. Adding units such as Sam Rovers, Troop Transports, and AAA Psi defenders to the #UNITS Section of the alpha(x).txt file are probably all pieces of the puzzle.


            D

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            • #7
              How about other plans for such a land transport? For example reconnaisance, would it transport alien artifacts? would it come back to a base safely or load it and scout further? maybe that would not work at all, I do not recall AI ever escort an AA to a base.

              With air units, what is good, is that when a faction is properly conditioned with AAA, even copter rarely can perform 2 attacks in a turn on major bases. And this is what we want - use copter with flexibility it gives, but be able to attack maybe once or twice in a turn. With strong AAA, copter can perform 1 attack and get so much damage it has to repair.
              Better use of AAA solves copter overpowering problem.
              Mart
              Map creation contest
              WPC SMAC(X) Democracy Game - Morganities aspire to dominate Planet

              Comment


              • #8
                Post Doc:AP version?

                Now my next question is what is the best version to introduce for use in the post Doc:AP world? I'm thinking of either a rover or a Hovertank with -1 movement.
                Unit would have either Psi armor or 3-Res, as well as AA capability to shoot down enemy air units.

                Any thoughts on this?


                D

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                • #9
                  You mean a combat land transport for AI to use?

                  SAM and AAA would be an interesting combination. Some AAA in the field though are more easy targets. Aerospace complexes give +100% in bases, and this is very large addition.

                  How about a transport with drop ability? would AI use it? those available from the game engine with transport weapon package make any transported unit to loose all move points, no matter combat or not. Designed your way might be different.
                  Mart
                  Map creation contest
                  WPC SMAC(X) Democracy Game - Morganities aspire to dominate Planet

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by mart7x5
                    You mean a combat land transport for AI to use?
                    Yes. Essentially I'm looking for balanced units to add to the default alpha(x).txt file, and I think that there should be a land transport available sometime shortly after Doc:AP. I was thinking of giving this transport a Missile weapon and making it available at Fusion Power.

                    Originally posted by mart7x5
                    SAM and AAA would be an interesting combination. Some AAA in the field though are more easy targets. Aerospace complexes give +100% in bases, and this is very large addition.
                    If I give it Psi armor then that typically is "just as good" as AAA. I'd probably also cheapen it so it doesn't take too long to build.

                    Originally posted by mart7x5
                    How about a transport with drop ability? would AI use it? those available from the game engine with transport weapon package make any transported unit to loose all move points, no matter combat or not. Designed your way might be different.
                    The AI doesn't use drop pods very well (except against undefended cities ). Units do lose their movement points after hitching a ride on a drop transport. Regardless, this still makes the drop transports good units to move non-drop defenders from base to base.

                    Since I've started to utilize drop units earlier in the games I've been building, why one thing I've liked to do with drop units during playtesting is to explore unknown territory with them: essentially I "cast them out" like a fishing lure (i.e. drop them somewhere into unknown territory) , then "reel them back in" (i.e. move them back to base). This then can very quickly explore regions for me. Also, if there happens to be a monolith nearby then I can repair the unit at the same time! And of course since the game doesn't allow you to drop units where enemy units are already positioned, then this is a good intel gathering tool as well.


                    D

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                    • #11
                      I'm looking at this and don't understand how it retains the transport capacity with the Laser weapon...
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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Straybow
                        I'm looking at this and don't understand how it retains the transport capacity with the Laser weapon...

                        Go to your main AC subdirectory and open either the alpha.txt file or the alphax.txt file and search for the #UNITS entry. Just above this you will see the following:

                        Name = Name of unit
                        ; Chassis = Chassis type (index to CHASSIS list, above)
                        ; Weapon = Weapon/package (index to WEAPONS list, above)
                        ; Armor = Armor (index to ARMOR list, above)

                        Plan = Unit "plan" for AI purposes:
                        ; -1 = Auto Calculate
                        ; 0 = Offensive
                        ; 1 = Combat
                        ; 2 = Defensive
                        ; 3 = Reconnaisance
                        ; 4 = Air Superiority
                        ; 5 = Planet Buster
                        ; 6 = Naval Superiority
                        ; 7 = Naval Transport
                        ; 8 = Colonization
                        ; 9 = Terraforming
                        ; 10 = Supply Convoy
                        ; 11 = Info Warfare
                        ; 12 = Alien Artifact
                        ; Cost = Cost in minerals (0 = Autocalculate)
                        ; Carry = Carrying capacity (0 = Autocalculate)
                        ; Preq = Technology prerequisite (see TECHNOLOGY, above)
                        ; Icon = Special icon, if any
                        ; Abil = Special ability flags


                        All of this information is then entered for each unit entered into the #UNITS section of the alpha(x).txt file.

                        So take the IoD as an example (because it can fight and transport nuits as well):

                        Isle of the Deep, Foil, Psi, Psi, 7, 8, 4, CentMed, -1, 000000000000000000000000

                        So the IoD's "Chassis" is "Foil", its "Weapon" is "Psi", the "Plan" is 7 (which is "Naval Transport"). Its "Cost" is 8 (which is 8 mineral rows). And it has a "Carry" (i.e. transport) capability of 4.

                        Now take a Land Transport:

                        Troop Transport Mk2, Speeder, Missile, Psi, 1, 0, 2, Fossil, -1, 000000000000000000100000

                        Its "Weapon" is a "Missile", its "Armor" is "Psi", its "Plan" is "Combat" (VERY IMPORTANT to set this for Land Transports!), and it has a "Carry" capability of 2. Oh yeah, and it shoots down enemy aircraft to boot.

                        Does that answer your question?


                        D

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