[C4:AC][Writing] Defining mission statement

[Illuminatus]

Indeed, but you have nothing to fear from non-members. Remember that we are not obliged to change our goals because of one's comments.

[Darsnan]

Originally posted by Senethro
I'm going to chip in here and say "NO!". We recreate SMAC exactly as is, using the same building costs and exploits. Even the Cloudbase Academy will remain.

I completely agree with this. If we start trying to add little tweaks to the mod, then we are opening a huge can of worms, as everyone is going to start stumping for their own little tweaks/ pet peaves to be included into the mod, which potentially can lead to huge arguments/ fractionalization of the team. Therefore I feel our goal ideally speaking should be to create a complete clone of the game. After this work is done, then anyone who wants to add their own tweaks to the game can do so from there (which is what I plan to do).

As far as members vs non-members are concerned: I think this is going to be a huge undertaking, and therefore I feel we should not disuade anyone from contributing, even if its only a one-time shot, and regardless if they want to be an official member or not.


D

[Lemmy]

Originally posted by Senethro Thanks for the input Lemmy, but this thread is really for members only. Would you be interested in joining? We've got serious shortages in the graphics department, not having anyone who even create placeholder graphics. Anyone with programming experience is desirable as well.
Alternatively, there are those of us acting in a feedback or organisational/administrative capacity such as creating and maintaining the wiki. Does any of that strike you as interesting?

No, i have no intention of joining in the near future....the time i spent posting here is already more than i can afford

Originally posted by Senethro
Also, the whole point of the mod is that the final version WILL be moddable and no matter what our version is, I think we can expect someone to make their own changes to every section. Therefore, it is not wasting time "coding things that you know will be different later on".

I mean from this project point of view of course...
"don't go out of your way recreating bugs that you don't even want in the final version."

For example first you code something as X, and later you change it to Y because that's what you wanted all along.
If you currently know you want it as Y, or are certain that you don't want it as X in the final version, why code it as X to begin with?
Doesn't seem practical to me, and only adds an unnecessary burden to the programmers.

[binTravkin]

If we start trying to add little tweaks to the mod, then we are opening a huge can of worms, as everyone is going to start stumping for their own little tweaks/ pet peaves to be included into the mod, which potentially can lead to huge arguments/ fractionalization of the team. Therefore I feel our goal ideally speaking should be to create a complete clone of the game. After this work is done, then anyone who wants to add their own tweaks to the game can do so from there (which is what I plan to do).

I agree with Darsnan on his point that we should not make any tweaks until a clone is not done, but I disagree with him on how the tweaks will be done thereafter ('anyone who wants to..').
I mean once we are finished with cloning, we should make up another goal/mission statement and define which tweaks we're going for (like improved AI, advanced and effective automatisation scheme) and which cathegories we're leaving out (like changing some major stuff in the game).
We should by then know which tweaks should be considered 'improvements' (either because there was no such feature or because it was poor) and which ones should be considered 'changes' (like a proposal to remove raise/lower and drill to aquifier by Hydro, on the ground that these things are unrealistic).

[binTravkin]

For example first you code something as X, and later you change it to Y because that's what you wanted all along.
If you currently know you want it as Y, or are certain that you don't want it as X in the final version, why code it as X to begin with?
Doesn't seem practical to me, and only adds an unnecessary burden to the programmers.

I got your point Lemmy.
I think we'll have some serious discussion before implementing buggy/erroneous features and then trying to fix them.
We should find a way to implement them differently so that they work as they are expected to, that might even include changing some things so that they work a little different (I think noone here expects that we will be able to recreate SMAC at full 100% - the engine is different after all and we have limited resources).

[Darsnan]

Originally posted by binTravkin

I agree with Darsnan on his point that we should not make any tweaks until a clone is not done, but I disagree with him on how the tweaks will be done thereafter ('anyone who wants to..').
I mean once we are finished with cloning, we should make up another goal/mission statement and define which tweaks we're going for (like improved AI, advanced and effective automatisation scheme) and which cathegories we're leaving out (like changing some major stuff in the game).

Sorry, I should have been more specific. What I am refering to as far as after the initial project is done is other mods to the game, such as Aldebaran and more specifically my own Beta Lyrae. I was not refering to follow-up work/ improvements on the initial SMAC Clone mod. FYI.


D

[Kataphraktoi]

Originally posted by Darsnan


I completely agree with this. If we start trying to add little tweaks to the mod, then we are opening a huge can of worms, as everyone is going to start stumping for their own little tweaks/ pet peaves to be included into the mod, which potentially can lead to huge arguments/ fractionalization of the team. Therefore I feel our goal ideally speaking should be to create a complete clone of the game. After this work is done, then anyone who wants to add their own tweaks to the game can do so from there (which is what I plan to do).

As far as members vs non-members are concerned: I think this is going to be a huge undertaking, and therefore I feel we should not disuade anyone from contributing, even if its only a one-time shot, and regardless if they want to be an official member or not.


D

yes,this must be a smax clone,or everyones ideas will mess it up

let me just say,that while non-member input is welcomed in no way should it determine policy. as illuminatus already states

I mean once we are finished with cloning, we should make up another goal/mission statement and define which tweaks we're going for (like improved AI, advanced and effective automatisation scheme) and which cathegories we're leaving out (like changing some major stuff in the game).

[Kinjiru]

Point of clarification is needed here.

People are using the abbreviation SMAC, but seem to be assuming that everyone knows this really means SMAX.

We need to be absolutely clear on the 'base' otherwise we will possible end-up with divergent code streams down the road.

So, to clarify the mission statement...

... recreate the "Look & Feel", as well as the functionality, of the Firaxis game, Sid Meier's Alpha Centauri and it's expansion Alien Crossfire...

[binTravkin]

yeah, SMAX is the actual goal.

[PJayTycy]

A question to the "pure clone" proponents: do you want to recreate for example the probe-rollover bug?


I would not do that. The intention should be to recreate SMACX as it was intended. Even if this means not including non-documented bugs. Stockpile Energy in queue would be the borderline I guess. Some will want this in, some will want this out, but I can't imagine anyone wants the probe roll-over bug in the game.

[Illuminatus]

Originally posted by binTravkin
2.Bugfix of a SMAC clone

[dmm1285]

are exploits going to be closed?

I don't exploits such as the crawler upgrade trick should be put into the mod.

[Fosse]

The consensus, at least among those volunteering time to do the work, is to recreate SMAC as closely as possible, and I think that includes exploits and all.

With that, the suggestions above, and the goal of this thread in mind, I revise what I wrote as a renewed suggestions:


Civ4:SMAC will recreate the gameplay, depth, and atmosphere of Sid Meier's Alpha Centauri in a Sid Meier's Civilization 4 total conversion mod. Civ4:SMAC, while remaining as true as possible to the spirit and gameplay of SMAC, will serve as a long-needed update to, provide a base and team for an eventual sequel for, and maintain the legacy of this gaming classic.


Is this the direction we should head in, or would someone else like to take a stab at it?

[Mart]

The goal might be:

1) Recreate SMAC in the version, as original is and was intended to be without! bugs.

I think there is no point in programming bugs into a game. Bug is a bug. Something, that should not be there. I although admit, that on occasion we might disagree, what in original SMAC is a bug, and what is a feature, that developers intended, but majority of gaming comunity sees that as a bug.

Example: stockpile bug. Why leave it in? In order to prevent players from using building queues? Why then have building queues? If there is need for additional energy every time something is completed in a base, let program it in. With clearly determined rules how it is done, so players may plan it.

In this case, one of the first steps would be prepare the document of what SMAC should really look like. With all bugs fixed, like for example unit ability "repair bay" finally working, etc.

2) Develop an official mod with improved features.

I would really see improvements here. For example we have now one chassis type: needlejet, which serves both as bomber and air superiority unit. There is placed restriction that you cannot upgrade between these 2 categories. Why not to split them into 2 different chassis types?
Other ideas might include distinguishing more than one "morale" systems:
- battle experience
- morale, understood as faith in the cause that a unit fights for
Further ideas to social engineering system. Why not overhaul it? Create more choices than 4.
Create more social effects. For example, TALENT effect works, but does not show on SE screen, so rarely anyone uses it. Let us think of more possibilities.

The mod would have to official, that would ensure, that it might survive the test of time, coz it would be official and created with input of many players.

I maybe repeat here what Darsnan said. But I would stress not programming bugs into it.

[Fosse]

I think that the argument about whether or not to include bugs and "accidental features" into the game is a design document argument. And because it's a potentially controversial topic the mission statement is not really the place to put such a detail.

Adopting text similar to that I've proposed allows the programmers to create a mod that completely copies every bug, or not. And further, to be flexible about it.

Now, I realize that a mod's mission statement on an internet forum is not exactly a binding legal document. But that's all the more reason to not weight it down with extra detail. It should be relativly short and to the point, and something that can remain constant for the whole of the project, sitting on top of the Design Document and serving as the first hook to people interested in the project.

Note that what I've written is intentionally vague about how this thing is to happen, and that being that way means it (or something similar) can be adopted once, in the immediate future, and never changed again. It should be done without feeling the need to tack on a "but without the bugs" clause, a "with better graphics" clause, and a "but the reverse engineering rovers isn't actually a bug," clause.