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**ChrisShaffer** · March 25, 2000, 18:10

Far too overpowered. It needs either less positives or lots more negatives.

**EternalSpark** · March 25, 2000, 19:22

Overpowered? if anything, I feel it is underpowered... all you have is your research that is a big boost.. and the +2 Industry plus the -2 planet means in my testing, half the difficulty is not having worm rape!

Please, I don't like when people say "its too overpowered" and don't give any reasons.

**Smeagol** · March 25, 2000, 20:26

No doubt this faction is overpowered. First off, let me just say that having 4 large social modifiers like this is messy and a whole lot more difficult to assess. That isn't to say that it shouldn't be done, just that it's harder to balance.

Regardless, while -2 growth and -2 planet are certainly harsh penalties, they are immediately balanced by the +3 research and +2 efficiency. And then you add in a free facility that isn't even available until late in the game, and you are way overpowered. And also immune to mind control? I'm not sure exactly how to balance this faction, but I think for sure you have to tone down the positives rather than add more negatives. I would say make it +2 research, +2 efficiency, -1 growth, -1 (or -2) planet and even give them mind control immunity. Or you could change the +2 efficiency to +1 industry. However, you're looking an awful lot like the Cyborgs either way (which is itself an unbalanced faction). If you really want to give them that robotic assembly plant, then I think the faction needs either to be reworked or to be given another significant penalty. That facility is a HUGE bonus that no one else could get until very late in the game.

[This message has been edited by Smeagol (edited March 25, 2000).]

**EternalSpark** · March 25, 2000, 20:35

See, this is like, good critiqin' (and I know I can't spell it, so bugger off )

As for being like the Cyborgs, perhaps... I ain't played the expansion but I do know their makeup/ideology, and lemme tell ya that in my faction, cyborgs are NOT welcome, for certain reasons...

I too was worried that the RAP was a little too powerful early on.. that is one of the things I wasn't too sure if I should have in... I'm gonna copy and paste what you said and tinker with it a little... thanks!

Is there any way to make it so that I could set a percentage for mind control? Like, if I didn't want complete immunity, but rather, oh, 25-50% more cost for mind controlling this faction's base, can that be done?

-ES-
This is the first dynamic sig on this forum. Ain't ya proud you see it?
[This message has been edited by EternalSpark (edited March 25, 2000).]

**Smeagol** · March 25, 2000, 21:19

I suppose to do that you could give them a probe bonus (a +1 Probe would make enemy probe team actions cost 50% more, for example). Gets even messier with balancing though, i think.

**EternalSpark** · March 25, 2000, 22:07

Yeah, that I don't want... I was looking in the faction file and there is something like "mindcontrol, 0" - if I change this to 50, what does that do? anything? make it 50/50?

-ES-
I guess I just plain ol' suck at this game, if y'all think something is overpowered and I'm getting my ass kicked using it...

**Smeagol** · March 25, 2000, 22:18

Nah, if it is set to 0 that just means that they are immune. This is not a percentage or anything, just a code I guess for the game to recognize. There is no way to set a certain percentage for partial immunity to mind control.

**EternalSpark** · March 27, 2000, 23:16

Alrighty I did some major reworking, and I'm getting this vibe that its pretty overpowered, in different ways this time, but here we go...

Starts with Mobility

Has no built-in facilities

+3 Research (might change it back to 2)

+1 Industry

-3 Planet

Can't use Green

1 Drone for every (5 or) 6 Citizens

Immune to inneffic like the Hive

Immune to neg. effects of Cybernetic

I'm getting a vibe that the plusses here way over welm the -3 planet.. the "no green" thing and the drone cituation might be alleviating, but I am not a very good player of this game, so I don't know if doing well means my skill, or the fact that its over powered.

I might change the +1 industry to something else... something that wouldn't expose the drone problem any more (or should I?) like a negative police rating, or I might give it a -1 industry instead of a +1.

As always, I need your help.

**Enigma** · March 29, 2000, 01:16

The robo assembly plant is NOT unbalancing since that facility only appears in your bases when you discover that tech. So for the 1st 100 years that ability will not make a difference.

And who ever said a faction has to be balanced Just look at Zack, the probe penalty hurts a bit but doesn't affect probe morale, and the extra drone only affects larger bases. The free node can help immensely with VW. The -3 planet would not be properly exploited by AI but a human player would know how to use it. If you want to alleviate the psi problem for this faction then give them a psi combat penalty.

The +3 research would not make nearly as big of a difference in the early game as Zack's Net node, but in the late game that would be huge.

**Smeagol** · March 29, 2000, 01:38

Enigma-- No, for this faction he said bases "start with Robo Assembly Plant", not that they get it when the tech is discovered.

Eternal Spark-- I'll try to critique your new specs later this week if I get a chance-- at a glance it looks much more balanced then before but I'll have to think it over when I have more time.

**EternalSpark** · March 30, 2000, 16:27

*bump* just bumping this so it doesn't get lost, I still need help...

**korn469** · March 30, 2000, 18:00

remember this when adding in factory facilities, the +50% is like +3 industry, except that it does cause more pollution

eternal spark both of your version of your faction is unbalanced in my opinion but they can be fixed pretty painlessly

i'll go with the second version

quote:

+3 Research (might change it back to 2)
+1 Industry
-3 Planet
Can't use Green
1 Drone for every (5 or) 6 Citizens
Immune to inneffic like the Hive
Immune to neg. effects of Cybernetic

try this

+2 research
+1 industry
-2 planet
-1 support
no green

they are still great at researching, really good at building since they can pop boom and run Free Market but the support penalty hurts them when they democratic and the planet penalty hurts them when they go FM, so pop booming, or energy bomming both have associated penalties

korn469

**EternalSpark** · April 10, 2000, 14:16

Hmm.

quote:

+2 research
+1 industry
-2 planet
-1 support
no green

I've played as/against faction like how you suggested, and I've found (especially against) that they manage to cover a continant pretty quickly, and manage to easilly secure elections and stuff cuz of it... maybe if I replaced the -1 support with a -1 growth or so, maybe that would work? Maybe..

+2 research
+2 Industry
-2 Planet
-1 or 2 Growth
Can't use Fundy (Since Green would be impossble already with that growth problem)

Still unbalanced?

**eisduotres** · April 12, 2000, 18:14

Heh, heh...Why not start with the Genejack factory? Comes with its own counterbalancing effect. :-)

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