new builder faction

[joer]

Since most the typical 'builder' factions have some penalty that punishes their building activity (UOP: Drones, Pacifists: efficiency, Cyborgs: growth, Morgan: dreadful city limit), I tried to make a 'true' builder faction that is supposed to be great for allowing lots of big cities to prosper, but has a crippling militairy.

This is my first attempt of designing a faction (or posting, for that matter).

Economics: +1
Growth: +1
Industry: +1
Efficiency: +1
Support: -1
Police: -2
Morale: -1
City limit increased by 2
Start with Industrial Base
No extra units
Agenda: Wealth
Aversion: Police State

Does that sound balanced? I know the econ+1 is incredible (boosting the faction together with wealth SE), but´the support-1 is a serious sucker at the beginning. I admit the faction is much stronger than Morgan, but I still hope it matches up with other faction strengths (unlike Morgan).

Themewise, I thought about making it fit to the 'Old Republic' of Episode I (though Queen Amidala makes a much cuter leader than Senator Palpatine).

Feedback is appreciated.

[This message has been edited by joer (edited April 12, 2000).]

[Smeagol]

I'm only posting because I agree with you that "Queen Amidala makes a cuter leader than Senator Palpatine."

As for the faction... while it is on the money as far as being a "true builder faction", as you seem to guess, it is certainly too powerful.

Having a police rating of -2 is really a non-penalty... all it does is eliminate nerve stapling and disallow police units, which can hurt but not anywhere near enough to balance any of your pluses. The same goes for -1 Morale... by itself, not much of a penalty, but I will say that when you use wealth it makes it hurt a bit more (but it still is using wealth that is really doing the morale damage, not the -1 penalty of the faction). As for the support, no doubt that'll hurt early but you've got so many bonuses that it won't hurt enough.

I think a simple point really is that when you give a faction +1 economy, you need a significant penalty to keep the faction from becoming Godlike. Morgan has this as his only true bonus, and that faction has both a support hit AND tiny base limits. To give a faction +1 economy and also actually increase the base limits makes them way more powerful than any faction in the game, so there is just no way to balance that. So right off the bat, you need to get rid of the hab limit bonus.

My thoughts on a more balanced version:

+1 Economy
+1 Industry
+1 Efficiency
-1 Support
-2 Police
-1 Morale

and No planned or no democracy so that they can't population boom without a golden age.

I'm not saying that even this is balanced, but it's a step towards being more balanced.

[This message has been edited by Smeagol (edited April 12, 2000).]

[joer]

Thanks for the feedback, Smeagol.
First off, I think that, in addition to a cute image, Queen Amidala also has the better lines.
"I will not a condone a course of action that will lead us to war" fits the faction very well and insulting her with her having to watch her people suffer and die while she discusses any invasion in a comittee is funny, too (ok, I got it backwards, so what?
;-) )

[joer]

Thanks for the feedback, Smeagol.
First off, I think that, in addition to a cute image, Queen Amidala also has the better lines.
"I will not a condone a course of action that will lead us to war" fits the faction very well and insulting her with her having to watch her people suffer and die while she discusses any invasion in a comittee is funny, too (ok, I got it backwards, so what?
;-) )

Here's another try for the mods: You are probably right that the Econ bonus
is both the biggest advantage and a direction which I didn't really plan, so I might as well get rid of it totally. How does the balance look then?

Growth: +1
Industry: +1
Efficiency: +1
Morale: -1
Police: -2
Support: -1
+2 city size
Industrial Base starting tech
no Police State

Is that too weak now? Does it still make any sense (it seems that Lal comes off better in any way again)? Could even a +2 growth be justified now, or is that really taking a ridiculous stance towards Pop Boom (with just Demo+Planned)?
Again, feedback is appreciated.
-joer

[Basil]

+2 growth would give Pop Boom in every base with a creche even if you just used Democracy (Planned not needed), would it not? And that faction would use Democracy a lot, and creches aren't difficult to get...

I *think* you're limited to 8 soc. mods/bonuses/penalties/starting techs, and you're at 8, so that's fine, but if you give it any more you might want to test that the game actually understands the file. (I'd like to give it a -1 Planet (+1 growth, +1 industry... ;-)) but I suspect the game would just ignore the additional setting.)

For AI settings, I presume that it's peaceful, not concerned with power and concerned with wealth. Not sure whether it'd be concerned with tech or growth, but probably a good idea for it to be concerned with growth.

Otherwise, it looks very very strong if it gets left alone at the start, which is what you were looking for? If it's *not* left alone at the start it still doesn't look harder for a player to defend than the other builder factions.

[korn469]

how about this

quote: +2 efficency +1 industry -1 support -2 morale +2 to base size penalty police state tech: industrial base no power

when morale is -2 it actually is a real negative because it cut the bonus from morale boosting buildings in half

+2 efficency is better than +1 growth and +1 efficency in my opinion, because it allows you to get a paradigm economy when you run either democratic or green

power would basically cancel out the negatives and the positives of this faction so it is a good play balance choice to say that this faction can't use it...also power is all about a military conquest of Planet so a peaceful faction probably wouldn't use power

the penalty with police is to restore the normal police state penalty...it would be strange if these peaceful builders ran police state most of the time police/FM/kno would give them +1 efficency and +2 economy with only -3 police which would let them be a fairly good conquer faction which is what you dont want so penalty police state is a good penalty and the +2 to base size makes up for it

korn469

[Jasonian]

In my opinion, anything over 6 modifiers is WAY too much, not counting free tech or SE limiations. Not only are they hard to keep track of, but each modifier limits your play style. The ability to play Yang has a researcher or builder is always a riot. It's possible, just harder.

Keep this in mind.

Oh, and don't tread on my territory with the Star Wars stuff. (just kidding, of course )

[DaveVegas]

You have way to many modifiers! I have found that if you go beyond 4-6 social modifiers the faction ends up being to powerful and unbalanced. You cannot have over 8 modifiers total. Your idea makes it go over that limit. I use 4 social modifiers, and 2 techs with my faction. I have a +1 Industry, +1 Planet, -POLICE, -Growth. I have +2 Interest & +3 Commerce. If I add one more thing it becomes totally unbalanced to play with. Most faction creators make factions that are way out of balance having more than 6 modifiers will always make it unbalanced to play a good game with. My opinion of course but I have spent many hours testing and retesting to prove what works and what doesn't. Hope this helps you!

quote: Originally posted by joer on 04-12-2000 05:25 AM Since most the typical 'builder' factions have some penalty that punishes their building activity (UOP: Drones, Pacifists: efficiency, Cyborgs: growth, Morgan: dreadful city limit), I tried to make a 'true' builder faction that is supposed to be great for allowing lots of big cities to prosper, but has a crippling militairy. This is my first attempt of designing a faction (or posting, for that matter). Economics: +1 Growth: +1 Industry: +1 Efficiency: +1 Support: -1 Police: -2 Morale: -1 City limit increased by 2 Start with Industrial Base No extra units Agenda: Wealth Aversion: Police State Does that sound balanced? I know the econ+1 is incredible (boosting the faction together with wealth SE), but´the support-1 is a serious sucker at the beginning. I admit the faction is much stronger than Morgan, but I still hope it matches up with other faction strengths (unlike Morgan). Themewise, I thought about making it fit to the 'Old Republic' of Episode I (though Queen Amidala makes a much cuter leader than Senator Palpatine). Feedback is appreciated. [This message has been edited by joer (edited April 12, 2000).]

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[This message has been edited by DaveVegas (edited April 25, 2000).]

[DaveVegas]

Ahh experienced designer! Most do not realize that Techs, Free facilities, etc count toward the total allowable modifiers of 8 total. Anything over this limit you can still play, but with erractic results. I have seen some wierd things happen when going past this limit. Almost 90% of all factions online for download have this problem. No faction in AC has over 6 total modifiers, not even the Aliens. I wish there were more balanced factions to play with.

quote: Originally posted by Jasonian on 04-14-2000 11:53 PM In my opinion, anything over 6 modifiers is WAY too much, not counting free tech or SE limiations. Not only are they hard to keep track of, but each modifier limits your play style. The ability to play Yang has a researcher or builder is always a riot. It's possible, just harder. Keep this in mind. Oh, and don't tread on my territory with the Star Wars stuff. (just kidding, of course )

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