Balancing the Hive

[rod87]

Hi guys!

I'm slowly regaining interest in coming back to the game after some years, but recalling previous games, I always remembered the Hive as being the most powerful AI in almost every situation, unless they got a very rough start which usually would have meant total destruction for any other faction.

So I've been thinking at tinkering with the faction editor to change some things in them, like removing their inmunity to inefficiency. What has anyone done / can I do to balance them a little bit in regards to the other AIs? It always seems that I tremble in fear whenever I see them, because they can excel at everything, while, as a builder at heart, I should only be fearing Santiago and Miriam...

[Buster Crabbe's Uncle]

They're mostly only dangerous on a smallish map, IMO. They fill up a largish area fast, then mostly stop expanding and let you wait to go to them if you didn't start close.

[rod87]

Thanks Buster!

The problem I have is that with the proper strategies I can deal with them, but the rest of the AI... not so much

They are usually the first ones to eradicate any other faction.

[Buster Crabbe's Uncle]

I know where you're coming from - one has to play for many years before one stops fearing the Hive, and they never stop being very dangerous next-door neighbors in the early game.

(Buster is my niece. )

[rod87]

Oh, sorry

And please excuse me but I think I'm not expressing myself clear enough, English is not my native language and that might be the reason.

What I would like to know is how to modify the Hive in order to make them be on par with the other AI factions. Not so much because I might be afraid of not being able to deal with them, but more so because I'm interested in seeing more unpredictable outcomes, and not just have Yang be the only one capable of running away with the game 90% of the time. I know that for example most of the time Morgan doesn't seem to know how to do anything to keep himself alive or at least put up a good fight with anyone else, and having the Hive seem so overpowered in contrast makes the Morganites fall into oblivion too many times. Same goes some times for the Peacekeepers, and even the Gaians and the Spartans.

[Buster Crabbe's Uncle]

Oh, I got that - it's just that I'm an art/story modder, not so interested in .txt modification, so I can't help much with that. The vague answer is that there's a personality setting (Hive is set to aggressive) in Hive.txt, as well as various faction statistics that can be changed if you know what you're doing. You can open and edit in NotePad.

Hopefully, someone who knows more will come by and talk to you...

(Lots of people don't know better than to call me Buster - no worry. "BU" will do just fine.)

[gwillybj]

As BU mentioned, start with one simple change in hive.txt and see if it suits you:
On the line that starts with Human Hive, at the end, change the first 1 (one) to a 0 (zero) to calm Yang down a notch. He will be Erratic instead of Belligerent.
I don't know which I'd fear more, a despot who I can be sure of to look for (or welcome) a battle or one who might fight/might not, depending on the temperature of his coffee that morning.
Happy SMACing!

[Buster Crabbe's Uncle]

Just be sure to backup Hive.txt first, and don't be afraid to experiment.

[MapGuy]

On a larger map, I find the best way to deal with the Hive is to first find out where his power base is. If it's close, squash/curtail him immediately. If it's a moderate distance from you, then keep an eye on him and see if he expands toward you. The Hive generally goes after whichever faction is closest. If that isn't you, then you don't have to worry about him as much. If his power base is a long distance from yours, then you probably don't have to worry about him at all. On a large map, and over a long game, the Hive tends to stop expanding at a certain points, and then falls behind in tech. If you ever do come in conflict with him, you'll probably have the advantage in both technology and numbers.

One other thing. If you're fighting the Hive, let them come to you. No matter what the map size. If you get into a war with the Hive, they will go into a total war economy and throw unit after unit at you. If you hold your position and remain on the defensive for a while, that will force Yang to project his war machine over a longer distance. Damages he suffers in combat will be difficult for him to repair, because he has to bring his troops all the way back to one of his bases for repairs. Remember that he's at the far end of his supply lines. As an added bonus, any feral worms living in the no-mans land between you are likely to encounter Yang's units before they encounter yours. So he'll had the added burden of deal with the natives while trying to deal with you.

You, meanwhile, are near your supply sources, letting you recover and re-arm more quickly. When his units start falling, you should have the ability to blitz across the no-mans land and capture one of his bases fairly easily. His units will have been spread too thin to really oppose you. And most of the feral locals have been dealt with as well.

[rod87]

Buster's Uncle

Oh, I got that - it's just that I'm an art/story modder, not so interested in .txt modification, so I can't help much with that. The vague answer is that there's a personality setting (Hive is set to aggressive) in Hive.txt, as well as various faction statistics that can be changed if you know what you're doing. You can open and edit in NotePad.

Hopefully, someone who knows more will come by and talk to you...

(Lots of people don't know better than to call me Buster - no worry. "BU" will do just fine.)

Thanks BU

gwillybj
As BU mentioned, start with one simple change in hive.txt and see if it suits you:
On the line that starts with Human Hive, at the end, change the first 1 (one) to a 0 (zero) to calm Yang down a notch. He will be Erratic instead of Belligerent.
I don't know which I'd fear more, a despot who I can be sure of to look for (or welcome) a battle or one who might fight/might not, depending on the temperature of his coffee that morning.
Happy SMACing!

Thank you, gwillybj, that's more like what I was looking for. The problem I find is that it only changes his behavior, and not his true power (lots of industry and no efficiency penalties, especially with the SE choices he will choose 99% of the time).

It's a bit like calming down a lion. He might not attack as often, but when he does...

MapGuy

On a larger map, I find the best way to deal with the Hive is to first find out where his power base is. If it's close, squash/curtail him immediately. If it's a moderate distance from you, then keep an eye on him and see if he expands toward you. The Hive generally goes after whichever faction is closest. If that isn't you, then you don't have to worry about him as much. If his power base is a long distance from yours, then you probably don't have to worry about him at all. On a large map, and over a long game, the Hive tends to stop expanding at a certain points, and then falls behind in tech. If you ever do come in conflict with him, you'll probably have the advantage in both technology and numbers.

One other thing. If you're fighting the Hive, let them come to you. No matter what the map size. If you get into a war with the Hive, they will go into a total war economy and throw unit after unit at you. If you hold your position and remain on the defensive for a while, that will force Yang to project his war machine over a longer distance. Damages he suffers in combat will be difficult for him to repair, because he has to bring his troops all the way back to one of his bases for repairs. Remember that he's at the far end of his supply lines. As an added bonus, any feral worms living in the no-mans land between you are likely to encounter Yang's units before they encounter yours. So he'll had the added burden of deal with the natives while trying to deal with you.

You, meanwhile, are near your supply sources, letting you recover and re-arm more quickly. When his units start falling, you should have the ability to blitz across the no-mans land and capture one of his bases fairly easily. His units will have been spread too thin to really oppose you. And most of the feral locals have been dealt with as well.

Thanks for the input, Mapguy, but the main problem I have with Yang is not me dealing with him, but rather the other AIs dealing with him.

And besides, what I have seen from previous games is that no matter the distances, or whether he wants to repair his units or not (I wouldn't care if I was in his position), because of his big industry bonus, and lack of efficiency problems despite the economy penalties, he will always churn out dozens of units in no time. Sure he doesn't have as much energy as Morgan, or any other faction for that matter, but that doesn't stop him from making more sticks than anyone else to hit them with. Domai in contrast, while being also an industry buff, seems much more balanced, if only for the -2 to research like Miriam's.

Buster's Uncle

Just be sure to backup Hive.txt first, and don't be afraid to experiment.

I think I will follow your suggestion. I might even roleplay it a bit and play as the Peacekeepers, like some sort of UN supervising institution watching over the Hive, and ready to intervene if necessary.

[ReconRoverRush]

Controlling the Sea is key

I found that the only time I've found against the Hive in a scenario like you said was this. I was on my large island as the University. The Gaians, Peacekeepers, Morgans were getting a long unit Yang launched a massive assault. I let the Hive work up quite a frenzy pushing from the south into the middle and then the top of the map. I then dropped a bunch of units via transports and took out a chunk of his bases. Funny thing was, he kept pressing right into the Gaians, so I just took 3/4 of his bases and watched his army disappear due to lack of support. With no minerals, he couldn't build any new units. After Yang surrendered, it was an easy matter to win diplomatic victory. I just did something similar to Conqueror Marr. The AI can't seem to deal with transports. Heck, from playing other Civ games I know I can't either. Blam, 4 probe teams drop in infiltrate data links, steal all your tech and a good chunk of energy, rinse and repeat. Basically, any low economy faction that doesn't focus on explore takes too long to get sea units on the board. I've found a bigger problem with Yang is he get stranded on some island and can only build one base until he can build sea colony pods/transports. Same goes with Mirriam, she got stuck on a tiny island in the above game, had like 4 votes total. Interestingly I've seen Yang have quite a bit of trouble with native life forms, perimeter defense does nothing against these. If Yang starts out near lots of fungus he tends to do real bad, in fact the Planet Cult is the only AI I've seen recover from starting in a huge patch of fungus. All in all Yang is low threat compared to the Spartans and Believers from my experience. Though taking him out in the first 10 turns is a little hard with free perimeter defense, even so the Gaians can do it quite easily with just one mind worm and a little luck. When Mirriam and Yang start out right next to each other Yang almost always loses. In fact Mirriam will take down any AI controlled faction except Spartans of the original 7. In brief, Mirriam and the Spartans seem much tougher and faster, often taking over other AI factions in the first 50 turns or so before the player can interfere. Just like all the low research races Yang gets stranded on islands easily. Finally, early native lifeforms tend to wreck Yang more than most. He seems to build too many formers/colony pods and not enough scout patrols to protect them. End result, Yang ends up with one base and no formers. I noticed the same weakness against natives with the AI Drones. I think its a problem with any faction set to Build by default. Alternately Yang could be trying some sort of rush on me and all his units get eaten by mind worms and I don't even notice. Personally I think the mind worms rush a little too early in the game, its possible to lose a colony pod/base on turn 2. I mean come on, if your base starts out 3 or less squares from a mindworm it can use the fungus to attack right away. I learned the hard way to build about 4 scout patrols expecting to lose 3 especially as Gaians, -1 morale. That first mind worm capture can cost a lot of scouts if the mind worms keep attacking first. Note this isn't even on +25% score option for more natives.