ACDG6: Operations

[Mart]

Regarding Templars, Silvera is seething and still in vendetta with us. I imagine, we will have to conquer some (one of two) or even majority of their bases if they build more. Having only hq base, Silvera would probably go submissive. But ally with only 1 base gives little commerce. We would return to Templars all conquered bases on her tiny island, not in the jungle. Also possible, we make a connection to that second island to the north. Templars might fit 5 or more bases there, and we would get decent income from Pacted faction, plus support in voting.

Other benefits, one could count here training military units to higher morale, having bases near Atlanteans without increased drone problems, some research leapfrogging possibilities.

[Mart]

That's true, it's most likely easier to conquer WP having CN, that it is to conquer CN having WP. Let's see how the situation develops.

We might get both SP before Cycon accumulates minerals.

[Mart]

And yet another unpopular proposal of mine.
Screw research rate for now. Get 60% economy, 40% labs. With plutocracy we get 34 EC/turn (we loose like 2 EC negative only). Then we have 17 minerals rushing per turn!

And another... Ghosts have 4 techs that we don't. Lets do "probing party." Their military is relatively weak, old technology.
one 4-1-1, two foils (4)-1-5, the rest six is s(2)-1-5. We have twice as many bases as they do. Ghost effective production 49 minerals against 52 ours. But we have capacity to increase it soon. We would probably win a conflict. Might be a bit rough at times, but 4 almost free techs may pay for it well.

[Hydro]

Importantly, the Ghosts have Zero Pt energy and energy restrictions are lifted. That is certainly useful considering the cost of our research.

If we get hostile we can defend coastal areas with a 6-1-1 artillery, which will defend our coastal terraforming and win against most sea foils.

Or we could try to frame another faction, suffering the success penalty. Not sure I'd want that since we don't have too many probes. Note that we are now +2 Probe since we switched from Technocrat to Plutocracy.

We have a broad and thin expansion, and with some development we will hugely more powerful in terms of resources.

Removing the Ghost base from our territory would be nice. Right now all the defenders have no armor, but there are a good number of them.

If we go hostile we have to make sure we can win, probe him, take the base, and then see if he offers a truce.

[Hydro]

But, I don't think we can go to war and still be competative for the SP race. Right now I'd opt for the SPs. The Ghosts aren't going anywhere, and we'll know how we fare soon enough.

If we decide to crush some of our neighbors then that argues for CN. Getting the Templar and Cult as subject factions would be nice. Having the Cyborgs and Angels as friends is good, but if they get frisky we can take them out too - spoken like a hybrid.

[Mart]

We would need to plan it well.

An important thing also. We get in 2 turns applied Plasma Physics. If we are going to probe it (one of the 4 techs) then we would need to kill our research till we probe it from Ghosts, alternatively there is a chance we trade it from Cycon. further, we would switch to a new tech, other than remaining 3 in Ghosts possesion. Thus we would have soon 5 new technologies.
While making crawlers, we would need to prepare appropriate number of probe teams. To get it cheaper, we might do like 2 infantry ones, plus one land transport capable to carry both. There is a good approach site near Virtual Ocean, but we would need a former to ensure transport entry into fungus. From there, transport would move next to Ghost base, both probes might attempt to get 2 techs. We might actually probe this base only, accepting loses due to security interlocks, or build foil probes to probe maybe Delan Cove and Ocean Apostasy.

[Mart]

Ghost probing might be attempted after we get Rej Tanks, WP and CN.

[Hydro]

We also would have to prepare for a hostile Ghost reaction. Cities near the sea will need probe teams and at least a decent defender in case a transport pulls up. Likewise, it might be best to take out the Ghost base completely, which will take a concentrated attack with 4+ defenders.

Probes should be regular, I think. Only having 1 move for an infantry probe is a liability.

Foil probes are very expensive pre-fusion. Land probes seem like a better idea.

[Mart]

I did some estimates, checked possibilities.
As of 2147, we could:
- Go to unitary police state, better support, one more free unit. better police, we have no drones! All workers work. Helps kill research for the time being.
- set 70 economy, +41 EC. research 13.3, in 3 turns, we could completely kill it later, in 2 turns. Effective production 73 minerals and 20.5 from rushing, plus a few EC having now, so we can do 94 mineral per turn. Would grow as our formers complete more terraforming.
- Both SP are 200 minerals. We have already over 80 minerals in crawlers accumulated, but maybe not all will be possible to use for both SP, anyway with production close to 100 minerals we get both SP in 4 turns. 2151 accumulated. 2152 completed.
- We then prepare probe teams and needed military. With production 100 we should be getting like 5 units per turn of 6r-1-1 or 6r-1-2. Artillery, some defenders. We could actually continue when probing Ghosts already. And also some bases possibly would still build crawlers for the remaining SP. I think we might probe as early as 2154. We would get all 4 techs. Trade maybe with Cycon for their Nanotubes, they should be getting in 2149. Then recover our research rate and get quickly 5th or 6th tech, depending if Cycon traded. Also Delan should be getting Graviton theory in 2158. So we might probe for it too.

Estimated maximal tech gain 7 techs by 2158 in 11 turns. Or just 5 techs in 11 turns. And this is excluding possibilities with other factions.

If we feel we can sustain conflict with Delan for 10 turns, I would go for it. We probably would have better production than Ghosts.

[Hydro]

Going PS will tick off Rose, who has already broken her Pact with us. PS also indicates that we're more Momentum than Hybrid. PS is good for cranking up production at the cost of research. If our objective is to steal our way to tech parity and slut out our acquired tech then that is certainly a decent strategy.

Of course, CN is key to a militant Hybrid or Momentum strategy.

[Mart]

Regarding probe teams. Notice, that 2 regular probe teams are more expensive than one foil probe. 2x3 rows = 6 agains 5 rows for a foil probe. After first probe we would be getting like 50% death rate of probes. So possible from 2 one would die. We end up with one probe spending 6 rows. Foil probe would probe one sea base once, surviving, we end up with one probe for 5 rows. It is cheaper.

Option with infantry probes is like this:
- 2 for 4 rows, plus 2 land transports, and two offensive units like rovers to eliminate 4 defending units. Two land transport would bring all 4 units with full move points to base vicinity. Then we probe the base twice. The second probe has still 50% to die, but now it costs us only 2 rows, not 3. Two rovers should clean up to 4 units capable of retaliating, so our land transports would be safe. Maybe 3 transports, 4 probes, 2 rovers. A defending unit 1-2r-1 or 1-2r-2 just in case of 5th Ghost unit, end up movement in group, just to serve as designated defender. Plus maybe 1 artillery 6r-1-1, to defend against Ghost foil navy. 4 probes would probably not get all 4 techs. But having one 0-1-2, and then attempting 3 infantry probes with interlocks would need only 3x2=6 rows of minerals in land probes. We also could get 2 foil probes for 100 minerals. Overall high chance to get all 4 techs in a single turn with these 6 probes. We would use 160 minerals for it, so 1.6 turn production roughly. Most of it would survive and serve us later.

We would probably be able conquer land base, Virtual Ocean the next turn.

Well, 2154 is maybe optimistic, but 2155 or 2156 seems possible.

[Mart]

Of course, CN is key to a militant Hybrid or Momentum strategy.

And we should have it in 4 turns together with WP if we do it this way. My estimate.

[vyeh]

How do we train military units to a higher morale?

Mart, do you have a problem with us maintaining a tech parity?

Our current (2147) research rate: 9 years
Angels 2146 research rate: 6 years
Consciousness 2147 research rate: 10 years
Ghost 2147 research rate: 12 years

Our research rate under 60% economy/40% economy: 12 years.

And the gain in rushing is minimal.

Once we change many of the doctors to workers, we are already earning 30 credits per year under 50/50 (which allows us to rush 15 minerals per turn).

I don't think it is worth a few (< 5) minerals to move from the middle of the pack tech wise to the back of the pack.

A probing party would involve probe foils which cost 5 rows of minerals (since the Ghost have only one land base).

Before you get too excited about unitary police state, under unitary democracy we only have two doctors (Cytosino and Faralia). So unitary police state adds little (2 extra mineral, 2 extra energy).

And it is not "help" to kill our research. If I recalled correctly, the odds for stealing a second tech from a base is around 50%. So we would have to produce a lot of probes to steal 5 techs from the same base.

There is very little increase in income from 60% economy to 70% economy. It seems strange to waste energy to avoid applied plasma physics so we can build more probe teams to steal applied plasma physics from the Ghost.

If we're going to fight the Ghost, I would recommend we build two resonance laser foils and we take out the Ghost HQ as soon as possible.

[Mart]

Vyeh, I see different play solutions and propose them.
I agree, that slowing down research now is not that beneficial as it was some turns ago, since to prevent Applied plasma physics we will get quite a loss. But anyway.

Police state gives us more support. Now this alone is 12 minerals per turn. Plus 2 workers from those 2 doctors. It is already something significant, like half a crawler a turn. We have more than 12 bases, so rehoming some units we can further use more Police State.

Research cost is 378 labs. With 5-7 techs will get higher. Let's say we now get Applied plasma physics, then in 9 to 8 turns we get another tech, so around 2156 we have 2 techs and maybe some from exchange. But will Ghosts willingly give us for free like 3 another techs? Including graviton theory with weapon (8). I do not think so. More likely while being seething towards us they may declare vendetta. Some chance to trade with Ghosts, I would say 0 or 1 techs, maybe 2. I think they may want from us now only 1 tech. So we get 3 - 4 techs, considering Ghosts only here.

When doing research stop and Police state.
We now have: 60 minerals and 30 EC per turn. Total 75 minerals production.
With PS, going for max economy we get 73 minerals, 41 EC, total 93 minerals. Gaining 18 minerals per turn, more than half a crawler per turn. We then use this production to get CN, WP faster and then probes and military:

We have now one probe team on speeder. It would probe land base first, surviving. We would use 3 infantry probes further, risking only 2 rows of minerals each. I would also build 2 foil probes for 10 rows total, they would probe 2 sea bases with 100% chance of getting a tech, high survival too. Plus needed military, estimate:

3 infantry probes = 60 minerals
2 probe foils = 100 minerals
1 speeder 4-1-2, (we have one already) = 30 minerals
1 speeder defensive 1-2r-2 = 20 minerls
3 land transports = 60 minerals
1 artilery, 6r-1-1 = 30 minerals (cheapest prototype)
1 laser skimship, 4-1-5, escort of probe foils, = 30 minerals
all these units would be for probing task force. Most of it would probably survive.

Total 330 minerals. Now, I think that soon terraforming would bring that 93 mins/turn to 100 mins/turn or more. Then its like 3.3 to 3.5 turns production.

The way probing would go:
- 2 foils, both 100% chance on Ocean Apostasy and Delan Cove, (2 techs)
- 1 probe team 0-1-2, 100% chance (3rd tech)
- 3 infantry probes, like 87.5 % to get 4th tech. 37.5% chance to get 5th tech, if Delan has Graviton theory, if not, more our probes live.
- During coming turns Delan will get Graviton anyway, we can then probe it from remaining sea bases with foils, see my comment below on new tech switch - new option possible.
Overall, high chance to get all 5 techs.

Timing.
With now like more than 80 minerals in crawlers and total cost of CN + WP = 400 mins. While having 93 mins/turn we should finish both SP in 4 turns + 1 for travel of crawlers = 2152. But bases would work on probing task forces already in 2152, lets say 4 turns = 2155. Some travel, around 2156 we may be able to get ready to probe Ghosts. Meanwhile with CN we could build more military for defense, counterstrike. Some crawlers and formers too. We have 14 bases.

There is a sixth technology, because we stop it now, in order not to get Applied Plasma, that we can probe from Delan, as soon as in 2156-2157 we get 4-5 techs (including applied plasma) from Ghosts, we return to research rate, and switch, maybe Know How: Sea Power. We then immediately have amphibious ability. Cruisers, to better fight Ghosts. We could do marines and take Informant's Dock and Betrayal at sea from our land, no ships needed. Also if Graviton tech still not in our pool, we do (maybe upgrade) amphibious probe and probe one of the mentioned bases.

Cost of this is something like 480 labs. But it is converted to roughly 18x10 = 180 minerals, in useful units and maybe not many lost from it. Faster WP and CN probably too.
And instead of 3, maybe 4 techs in 10 turns, we get 6 techs and 180 additional minerals. We may be also better prepared to Ghosts aggression if by any chance Delan attacks us before we probe him.

It's not that I have any problem with research parity, I do not. I just see another way of play, in my opinion worth trying.
Well, there is some risk, but gain may be worth it.

[vyeh]

Why would you want to prevent applied plasma physics?

Switching to police state costs 40 credits. Switching back would cost another 40 credits.

Ghost now has +3 probe. I don't think the survival rate of a green probe foil would be high.

Isn't 87.5% to probe a base for a second tech high? I thought it is closer to 50%.

If you probe Delan, he will declare vendetta. I think we would need more forces to defend our frontier bases and to attack Delan.

We don't want to get into a vendetta of attrition. Shadow Run is producing 16 minerals per year.

If Ghost have control of the seas, they can land 6-1-1 and 6-1-2 units on our coast and threaten our HQ.

I think before we are ready for a vendetta against the Ghost, we can research zero point energy on our own. The lifting of the energy restrictions will make it easier for us to pursue either development or conquest.

So my proposal would be:

(1) Leave economy/lab 50/50 since there is no lost to inefficiency and both getting to zero point energy and building secret projects is important.

(2) Don't go into democracy police state (same reason zero point energy and building secret projects are both important).

When we engaged in a vendetta with the Templars, we had to give up formers and terraforming to finish the vendetta.
Why would you want to prevent applied plasma physics?

Switching to police state costs 40 credits. Switching back would cost another 40 credits.

Ghost now has +3 probe. I don't think the survival rate of a green probe foil would be high.

Isn't 87.5% to probe a base for a second tech high? I thought it is closer to 50%.

If you probe Delan, he will declare vendetta. I think we would need more forces to defend our frontier bases and to attack Delan.

We don't want to get into a vendetta of attrition. Shadow Run is producing 16 minerals per year.

If Ghost have control of the seas, they can land 6-1-1 and 6-1-2 units on our coast and threaten our HQ.

I think before we are ready for a vendetta against the Ghost, we can research zero point energy on our own. The lifting of the energy restrictions will make it easier for us to pursue either development or conquest.

So my proposal would be:

(1) Leave economy/lab 50/50 since there is no lost to inefficiency and both getting to zero point energy and building secret projects is important.

(2) Don't go into unitary police state (both zero point energy and building secret projects are important; it will cost us 40 credits to switch).

(3) After weather paradigm and command nexus, we should pursue other useful secret projects: planetary energy grid and vitro fertilization center (PTS).

When we engaged in a vendetta with the Templars, we had to give up formers and terraforming to finish the vendetta.

If we can focus on terraforming, crawlers and zero point energy instead of probe teams and military units, we can increase the mineral and energy productivity of our bases.

Current (2147) power graph:


Hydro,

(1) do you want to switch into unitary police state?

(2) do you want to adjust the social engineering slider?
If we can focus on terraforming, crawlers and zero point energy instead of probe teams and military units, we can increase the mineral and energy productivity of our bases.