Problems with Yang

[FleetingPenguin]

I started playing Alpha Centauri again, and I've gotten back up to playing on talent. However, I play the Peacekeepers, and I'm having great difficulty conquering the Hive. My attack strategy is a simple mass of infantry and rovers combined with needljets.

The first problem is that the Hive will snap up Command Nexus. Even with some command centers in my bases, my troops get annihilated by Hive troops of similar armor and weapons.

The second problem is the Hive mass of needlejets. It isn't uncommon for me to see over a dozen needlejets. They destroy my army while I'm traveling to attack the Hive bases. While I can take them out with my own needljets and when they are parked in bases, they seem to be never ending. Any bases I take are immediately bombarded by needlejets and then retaken.

I've tried equipping my troops with AAA, but it honestly seems to do nothing.

Conquering the Hive is the only way to stop them from attacking me. What am I missing?

EDIT: I'm also having cash flow problems. I need to set about a half-dozen of my bases on stockpile energy to get any income at all. All the infrastructure in my bases costs a lot to maintain...

[Darsnan]

Re: Problems with Yang

Originally posted by FleetingPenguin
I play the Peacekeepers, and I'm having great difficulty conquering the Hive. My attack strategy is a simple mass of infantry and rovers combined with needljets.

The problem is the Hive mass of needlejets. It isn't uncommon for me to see over a dozen needlejets. They destroy my army while I'm traveling to attack the Hive bases. While I can take them out with my own needljets and when they are parked in bases, they seem to be never ending. Any bases I take are immediately bombarded by needlejets and then retaken.

Conquering the Hive is the only way to stop them from attacking me. What am I missing?

A known issue with the AI is that it doesn't typically build very many AA units, so a strategy to take advantage of this is to continually park one of your noodles (AA or regular) over your stack of advancing units. In conjunction with this equip several rovers with AA to take out any Hive noodles that are caught in the air. This is sort of a cheap "take advantage of an AI flaw" approach, but heah your the Peace Keepers, their the Hive, and Yang looks good in a Punishment Sphere!

Originally posted by FleetingPenguin
I'm also having cash flow problems. I need to set about a half-dozen of my bases on stockpile energy to get any income at all. All the infrastructure in my bases costs a lot to maintain...

Several thoughts here:

1) what is your economy slider at?

2) How many crawlers do you have crawling energy resources?

3) What are your SE choices currrently? Are you optimized for Efficiency and/ or Economy?

4) Don't build every facility in every base. Simply put your fringe bases are losing most of their energy to inefficiency. Add to that the maintenance costs for each facility built in these cities and you can then very quickly start running into monetary problems.

Hope this helps.

D

[vyeh]

Re: Re: Problems with Yang

Originally posted by Darsnan
In conjunction with this equip several rovers with AA to take out any Hive noodles that are caught in the air.

Do you mean SAM (which allows a rover to attack a needlejet in flight) or AAA which doubles the rovers defense against air attack?

Originally posted by Darsnan
Several thoughts here:

1) what is your economy slider at?

2) How many crawlers do you have crawling energy resources?

3) What are your SE choices currrently? Are you optimized for Efficiency and/ or Economy?

4) Don't build every facility in every base. Simply put your fringe bases are losing most of their energy to inefficiency. Add to that the maintenance costs for each facility built in these cities and you can then very quickly start running into monetary problems.

A fifth thought is:

5) Are you building solar collectors on the farm squares your workers are harvesting? Are your workers on forests or mines for mineral production?

[Darsnan]

Re: Re: Re: Problems with Yang

Originally posted by vyeh
Do you mean SAM (which allows a rover to attack a needlejet in flight) or AAA which doubles the rovers defense against air attack?

Yes, SAM units to take out any Hive noodles they might encounter.


D

[FleetingPenguin]

I think an actual save file will answer all of your questions.

Feel free to critique my play mercilessly and provide thoughts in future plans. Any help would be great!

Notes on the save: I wiped out the Believers in the first turns of the game, and just finished taking out the University. I was going to settle down and build up, but then the Hive declared war.

[Nims]

Use Social Engineering. You have everything on Standard, why didn't you switch to Free Market, especially if you have cash flow problems ? Why don't you use Wealth or Knowledge ?
Don't build Energy Banks in small Cities i.e. UN Commerce Committee.
You have the Citizens Defense Force, sell those 2 double Perimeter Defenses.

[Lazerus]

Submit to the Hiverian rule, it's best for you in the long run !

[Lazerus]

2) How many crawlers do you have crawling energy resources?

Personally I don't think he'll be at the level where crawling energy will be reaping him more rewards then minerals in terms of production. My advice is to get those rockys mined and get some more crawlers on them for +4mins.

[Lazerus]

Had a look at the SAV, as Nims said, switch to FM/Wealth/Demo.

Good bases aren't the same thing as big bases with all facilities. Look at the energy/labs amount that the base is producing, try to take into account the bonus the facility will provide, ie +50%, against the amount it will cost to maintain (right click-help on it in the production screen to get details) and how long it will take to build (13 turns for 2 extra energy per turn ? = no bad deal).

Crawlers = your best friend, experienced players avoid using these as a challenge but everybody uses them vs other players or when they were starting to learn. I'd switch practically all your bases production to crawlers atm and crawl minerals, get some pops going to increase your clean mineral count ("clean minerals" are the amount of minerals you can have at a base before that base produces eco-damage. This value is increased by pops and tree farms/hybrid forests/centauri preserves and temple of planets built AFTER the first pop has occured.)
Your terraforming thus far is ok, I'd stick with forests close to everywhere and mines on rockys until you're confident in your playing.

The Hive is on a different island, don't freak out about him, get some AAA units in your bases and SAM noodles in those that Hive noodles can reach and build up for awhile. You'll soon learn the AI cannot launch amphibious invasions. SAM noodles will also avoid the drone penalty for having aircraft.

Most players only launch attacks when they've got choppers (available with MMI) rather then noodles. The secret projects available here aswell will really help cancel out that -morale from wealth.
The big drawback you'll learn is the drones you get when in FM and you build aircraft or send out troops into opponents territory. Simple ways around this :

1) Get a small base (1-2 pop) with large mineral count (crawlers) and rehome all attacking troops here (ctrl+H) and have the pop at this base turned to doctors, therefore they won't riot.
2) Build a punishment sphere at 1 base and rehome to there similar to above.

[vyeh]

Darsnan, Nims and Lazerus have covered a lot of the major themes.

What I will contribute is some base micromanagement. Since you're playing at talent, this is advanced of where you should be.

As Nims has pointed out, you're not using social engineering.

If you change just one line per turn, your upheaval cost is 16 credits.

If you changed to free market (and changed a worker to a doctor in UN Court of Justice), you would go from -3 surplus credits per turn to 66 credits per turn for a one time cost of 16 credits.

On the next turn, if you went to democracy, you would go from 66 credits to 93 credits per turns for a one time cost of 16 credits.

On the third turn, if you went to wealth, you would go from 93 credits to 110 credits for a one time cost of 16 credits.

In each year, you would recoup your one time cost the following year.

Here is the base micromanagement:

(1) UN HQ is building fungicidal formers (for UN Commerce Committee). It could be building sea formers to build tidal harnesses followed by building sea crawlers to harvest 3 energy per tidal harness. Eventually you may want a couple of naval units to seal off the waters between UN HQ and UN Commerce Committee from Hive naval forces. You can build a oceanic "energy park" for lots of energy.

The fungicidal former 1 sq. NW of UN HQ could move 1 sq. W onto the rocky square and build a thermal borehole.

(2) UN Information Agency is building a biology lab. This will cost 1 credit per turn in maintenance (and increase your labs in return). Alternatives are formers to build boreholes and sea formers to build tidal harnesses followed by sea crawlers to harvest 3 energy per tidal harness.

Three is a hab complex here. It costs 2 credits per turn and won't be useful until UN Information Agency is on the verge of going to 10 citizens (it is on the verge of having 6 citizens).

(3) UN Planetary Trust is building a research hospital, which costs 3 credits per turn and will return 2 labs per turn. Alternatives are sea formers and sea crawlers for tidal harnesses and formers for boreholes.

(4) UN Planning Authority is producing a tree farm which will cost 3 credits and add an additional 1 credit in income. It is worth building for nutrients, but UN Planetary Trust could build a sea former to add a tidal harness (and kelp farm) to the bonus mineral ocean square that UN Planning Authority is working for 3 additional energy (and 2 additional nutrients).

(5) UN Social Council is building a hologram theatre which will cost 3 credits and won't do anything (you don't have any drones to suppress; you have 2 talents and 4 workers so even with growth, you won't go into riots).

The hab complex cost 2 credits per turn and won't do you any good until you're on the verge of going to 10 citizens.

You could be building a former to build a borehole.

(6) University Base is building a children's creche, which is needed for the increased efficiency (you would get the same increased efficiency if you switched to democratic).

Hopefully, you inherited (and didn't build) the network node and the energy bank. They're producing nothing and costing 2 credits per turn.

You could use a former to add a solar collector to the farm square.

(7) Academgorodok is producing a former. It already has 2 formers. It should consider building a children's creche for greater efficiency.

Its 2 formers are turning rocky squares into rolling squares. It might be better to build a borehole and a condensor/farm combination to offset the borehole.

A tree farm would be useful.

Its energy bank (hopefully you inherited it) is doing nothing and costing 1 credit per year.

Move the 1-1-1 workers onto the 1-2-1 forests.

(8) Climactic Research is producing an energy bank. When completed, the energy bank will produce 1 credit per year but it will also cost 1 credit per year for a net of zero (unless you've done some social engineering).

It would be better to build a crawler to harvest the energy bonus.

You have a doctor that is producing 2 psych, which is wasted because there are 2 talents and no drones (there would be 1 drone if the doctor became a worker). If the doctor became a technician, you would go from -4 credits (a drain of 4 credits on the treasury) to 0 credits (Climactic Research supports itself).

I'm surprised that no one has brought up the use of specialists as a solution to inefficiency. You could build and crawl farm/condensor combinations and turn citizens into technicians. (I'll leave it to someone else to explain further.)

(9) Gagarin Memorial is building a children's creche to alleviate inefficiency. This is the correct choice. Hopefully you inherited the network node that is costing 1 credit per year and producing nothing.

(10) Mendelev College is building a tree farm which will cost 3 credits per year and produce 1. After the tree farm, you could consider formers to build a solar collector on the bonus energy which is 1248 m above sea level (so it would produce 4 energy per year) and a crawler to harvest it and sea formers and sea crawlers to build and harvest tidal harnesses.

Note the energy bank (which hopefully you inherited) is producing 1 credit but also costing 1 credit.

(11) New Arzamas is building a tree farm which will cost 3 credits and produce 1 credit.

The former 1 sq. NE of New Arzamas could move 1 sq. NW and build a solar collector.

The rolling rainy square currently being worked by New Arzamas could use a solar collector (and a farm) for an additional 2 energy (it is 1438 m above sea level) (and an additional nutrient).

Move the 1-1-1 worker to a 1-2-1 forest.

(12) UN Commerce Committee is building an energy bank which will cost 1 credit per year and produce 1 credit per year.

Move the 1-1-0 worker to the 1-4-1 bonus mineral forest.

There is a former turning a 2-1-0 rolling rainy square into a 1-2-1 forest! There is a flat arid square 2 sq. S by SW of UN currently producing 0-0-0. If you plant a forest there, it would produce the same 1-2-1 that a forest on the 2-1-0 rolling rainy would produce.

The rolling rainy could be farmed and solar collected to produce a 3-1-1 square.

(13) UN Court of Justice is producing a hologram theatre. This is the correct facility to produce since the base currently has 2 talents and 2 drones.

This is a nice base. Note that the 18 minerals of production are producing 1 ecodamage.

This means that there were no tree farms built since the first fungal pop (if there ever was one). I'll leave it to Lazerus to explain further about the desirability of getting a fungal pop before building more tree farms.

(14) UN Criminal Tribunal is building a research hospital, which will cost 3 credits and produce 6 labs.

There is a former leveling a rocky square. I would prefer that it is building mines (as Lazerus suggests) for minerals or boreholes for minerals and energy, although this may create ecological problems that you may not yet be prepared to deal with.

(15) UN Disaster Relief is stockpiling energy (nothing wrong with stockpiling energy).

Move 1-1-0 to 2-2-1 forest (there is no additional ecodamage).

(16) UN Education Agency is building a hab complex, which costs 2 credits per turn and will only be useful when the base is on the verge of 10 citizens (it currently has 6).

It would be better to build sea formers to build a tidal harness (and kelp farm) on the bonus nutrient for an additional 3 energy (and 2 nutrients).

(17) UN Enforcement Base is building a research hospital, which cost 3 credits per turn and will produce 4 labs per turn.

There is a (non fungicidal) former removing fungus. Next to it is a fungicidal former on a forest square. I hope it had not just finished planting a forest.

UN Enforcement Base is working a rolling rainy square at 1402 m above sea level. A solar collector will add 2 energy and a farm will add 1 nutrient.

(18) UN Equality Village is producing a tree farm which will cost 3 credits and produce 2 credits.

Move 1-1-0 worker to 1-2-2 forest river 1 sq. NE of base (the base will go from 3 labs and no surplus credits to 4 labs and 2 surplus credits).

PLEASE NOTE THE FOLLOWING:

(1) Base micromanagement is not necessarily a good thing. If you do the major items suggested by Darsnan, Nims and Lazerus, you don't need to micromanage your bases, especially at the talent level (I play transcend on a game created by a very devious CMN who goosed up the AI). In addition to the major things they suggested, I would add using specialists to combat inefficiency.

(2) I tried to be careful about making a distinction between what everyone would consider the right move (move 1-1-0 worker to 1-2-2 square) and my opinion (it would be better to build sea formers; others might consider something else better than sea formers). The beauty about SMAC is that there is no one "right" approach.

(3) Don't worry about the details. The message I wanted to get across is that one or two additional credits from timing the construction of facilities (don't build hologram theatres or hab complexes until you need them), moving workers around, building solar collectors, selecting the right specialists, using sea units (sea formers and sea crawlers) and some care about terraforming (there is more improvement turning a flat arid square into a forest than a rolling rainy square into a forest) add up.

(4) Between my comments and Nims, I think his will be more useful to you because they are more "big picture" and changes in social engineering have a much greater impact than all of my micromanagement.

[FleetingPenguin]

I will definitely take this suggestions into account. I'll upload a save in a day or so that takes into account your suggests. No time tonight

[BlackCat]

(18) UN Equality Village is producing a tree farm which will cost 3 credits and produce 2 credits.

And +3 nuts - it could be turned into a nice colony pod producer since there are room for more. The Pholus ridge area could support at least four new bases and there are a couple of other places for expansion.

[FleetingPenguin]

Ok, here you go. The main suggestions I made use of were:

1) Social Engineering. This did a ton in just 3 turns, as promised.

2) Crawler and energy farm abuse. I'm still working on both, but I think I have a reasonable base going.

3) Mining rocky terrain, making some boreholes, and planting more trees to crawl.

4) Deleting useless facilities. Rush built a few hologram theaters to deal with drones.

5) Added a punishment sphere to a base to let it support my future military. I did this as the Hive was attacking me, but they no longer are, so I guess technically I should probably delete it, but I think I'll leave it there instead of rebuilding it in the future.

6) Made some AAA troops in bases near the Hive and spartans. In the game I play from this save previously, they bum rushed me, but for some reason they are now. I guess I will leave the troops in place if they decide to attack.

Please tell me what you think!

[vyeh]

Re BlackCat's comment:

The original question was about a cash flow problem. My point was that the tree farm would increase the cash flow problem.

UN Information Agency is a better pod producer for the Pholus ridge area since it is closer and it already has a tree farm.

Re new save:

Some global comments:

(1) much better economy and labs.

(2) now you need to be producing hab complexes in several bases so you can grow beyond 9.

(3) you have empaths in two bases (maybe because there are no forests for them); technicians would produce an additional credit.

(4) Mendelev College is a good start on harvesting resources from the sea. More sea formers and sea crawlers would help.

(5) Consider crawling nutrients (especially from farm/condenser combinations) and minerals (especially from mines) and turning some citizens to technicians and other citizens into librarians especially at bases far from HQ (the former University bases). See what that does for your overall nutrient, minerals, economy and labs. If you have a base that is completely specialists, you could have a base that is producing massive credits and labs and is supporting your military forces beyond your borders and you can get rid of that punishment sphere which is cutting down on labs.

(6) Sea formers (and formers for that matter) can work together. At Mendelev College and Academgorodok, you have your sea formers building tidal harnesses on separate squares. This takes 6 turns. If they work on the same square you could build a tidal harness in 3 turns.

One specific terraforming comment:

(7) A road increases production of a rocky mine by 1 mineral. At New Arzama, there is a bonus mineral mine producing 6 minerals per year. If you built a road on that square, it would produce 7 minerals per year.

[FleetingPenguin]

Ah, good. So I've largely fixed all of the problems pointed out.

I believe I had the empaths because I had to deal with a drone, and if I made it an empath, it disappeared.

With respect to (6), why do that? Each strategy produces the same number of harnesses per 6 turns.

Two new questions:

After I get hab complexes in my large cities, where do I go from an economic standpoint? Once I have the large cities and production capability, how do I convert his production capability into a win easily? Keep in mind I'd like to try to win by conquest.

What new problems do you see, or more subtle macromangement problems that you did see fit to point out in the prior post?

Many thanks!