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How would you tweak the SE effects?

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  • How would you tweak the SE effects?

    As the subject line says...awhile back I posted a thread http://apolyton.net/forums/showthrea...gned+SE+choice about the "black sheep" SE choices, Police State, Fundy, Power, and (to an extent) Green, and why they were criminally neglected. Without rehashing that analysis too much I'll cut straight to my hypothetical question of what would you alter, or have done already, so the SE choices?

    Since the efficiency hit seems so brutal to Police State I've been toying with -1 Efficiency -1 Economy to it instead, trying to make it a little more feasible to run other than early game. (and I added Impunity: Police State to Yang's rules file to spare him from having an utterly abnegated economy, of course).

    Demo seems almost too easy to run most of the time considering its perks. I've been toying with adding -1 police to it, which may not matter to most factions, but to the Data Angels & Gaians, which takes away their ability to quell two drones with a garrison, it might.

    Still thinking about Power. Maybe -1 Industry -1 Research, to represent a budget shift to a military-industrial complex and less resources to legit labs?

    The problem with tinkering is one doesn't want to go overboard, or at least I don't, and one wants to make sure all the SOCIETY effects get a fair shake, juggling-wise.

    Any input?
    "I wake. I work. I sleep. I die. The dark of space my only sky. My life is passed, and all I've been will never touch the earth again." --The Ballad of Sky Farm 3, Anonymous, Datalinks

  • #2
    Instead of changing the SE table, I might do what is below. Why? To me, the SMAX factions are like SMAC_factions++. The newer factions have less downside and just more upside.

    I'd give Miriam either Impunity: Fundamentalism, or Robust/Immunity: Research.

    This will make Miriam a better opponent and give her a reason to choose Fundamentalism over Democracy besides just a SE choice she prefers. She knows how to get around the loss.

    I'd give Santiago either Impunity: Power, or Robust: Industry

    Same as Miriam. This will give her a reason to run Power all the damn time.

    I'd give Morgan size 5 bases or Robust: Support.

    Size 5 bases gives Morgan a little more room on the base size without hampering his drone control. The Robust: Support I like because Morgan's Thought Control might have more Recreation Commons type stuff everywhere. Something he should be good at by that point.

    I'd give the Zharkov Impunity: Knowledge, or Robust: Probe.

    Again, a reason to choose Knowledge all the time.

    I'd give Lal Impunity: Democracy, or Robust: Support.

    Lal really doesn't have a lot against him, being that his plus pretty much cancels out his minus. Plus with all the extra people, voluntary recruits shouldn't be hard to come by.

    I'd give Yang Free Ability: Nonleathal Methods or size 8 bases.

    Free Ability: Nonleathal Methods is kinda powerful, especially for Yang, but there is no SE choice with -Economy. Size 8 bases might be more feasible without encroaching on Lal's ability.

    I'd give Dierdre Robust: Morale.

    It will give her a reason to run Wealth, which will make her distinct and different from the Planet Cult.

    Comment


    • #3
      I think any discussion about modifying the alphax.txt file belongs in the creation forum.

      If you feel that Police State is undervalued, go with -1 efficiency instead of -2 efficiency and leave the economy alone. In the OCC case, your change makes Police State even worse.

      What is wrong with making democracy the prefered peacetime political choice? There should be an advantage over the frontier choice. -1 police would take away nerve stapling from most of the factions. If the perks make democracy too easy, perhaps the solution is to give police and fundy part of the democracy perks.

      As for making power -1 research, -1 industry instead of -2 industry, you're going to have a drastic effiect on any faction running a fundamental government. If power is undervalued, make it -1 industry.
      Unofficial SMAC/X Patches Version 1.0 @ Civilization Gaming Network

      Comment


      • #4
        The idea is just to throw out ideas for now, or if most people feel the SE effects are balanced as they are I'd like to hear it. If there's a chorus of a certain opinion it influences my judgement. I of course have to test any tinkering I do. So for now I'll be running some tests and gleaning ideas.

        There's no need to be so testy about which threads are apropos to which forum. Unlike CivIV SMAC/X is very low-key these days and any traffic at all is in AC General.
        "I wake. I work. I sleep. I die. The dark of space my only sky. My life is passed, and all I've been will never touch the earth again." --The Ballad of Sky Farm 3, Anonymous, Datalinks

        Comment


        • #5
          Not testy. I don't want to see AC-Creation disappear. Illuminatus has mentioned Apolyton has a use it or lose it philosophy with respect to forums. It also makes it easier for conducting searches.

          Anyway, I've been helpful. I don't think it is a good return to suggest that I'm "testy."
          Unofficial SMAC/X Patches Version 1.0 @ Civilization Gaming Network

          Comment


          • #6
            I'll post my own particular mod in AC-Creation once I've finalized the tinkering of the files and the like, with an extended readme, as I way of returning to the community, then. I should have it hammered out within a week or so.

            It's not nearly as radical as Smaniac or some other old mods but it's made my SP games more fun and the tweaked rules and new factions may be of interest to a few people.
            "I wake. I work. I sleep. I die. The dark of space my only sky. My life is passed, and all I've been will never touch the earth again." --The Ballad of Sky Farm 3, Anonymous, Datalinks

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Darrell01
              I'd give Morgan size 5 bases or Robust: Support.

              Size 5 bases gives Morgan a little more room on the base size without hampering his drone control.
              At size 5, one can have specialists other than doctor, i.e. librarian or technician. Morgan already is producing enough research and energy credits without the effects of these specialists.
              Unofficial SMAC/X Patches Version 1.0 @ Civilization Gaming Network

              Comment


              • #8
                Althought I suspect you may have already, there are some interesting takes on SE in the SManiac mod. He identified many of the same issues.

                Here is a clip of the SE table.

                Hydro
                Attached Files

                Comment


                • #9
                  The SE choices aren't even supposed to be balanced, I don't think. If you wanted to balance them, you'd have to revamp the growth and industry mechanics, and probably support as well. Both growth and industry are more effective the more you get, growth being the most conspicuous offender, since +6 growth gives you every turn increases in population, limited only by nutrients. But even without the population boom, the geometric progression of percentages means that each point of industry/growth is more powerful than the last. That's what makes factions like Yang and Domai so sick, and also what makes Sparta so weak.

                  While growth and industry are geometric in their progression, support is a linear increase that shrinks into insignificance fairly early on in the game. Which means if you're not running Democracy by midgame, you're hamstringing yourself rather badly, as the drawbacks are trivial and the advantages enormous.

                  I actually don't think Police or Fundy are all that weak, it's just that Democracy is incredibly powerful, having no real weakness once you've built up a decent level of mineral income.

                  The economic tier, on the other hand, actually is pretty well balanced. Good arguments can be made for either Free Market and Planned early on, and Green gets very attractive in the late game, and is a solid wartime choice in early play as well.

                  Power is the ultimate demonstration of the problem with support, as outlined above. Support is worthless past the first 100 turns or so, and the industry penalty is crippling regardless of timeframe. And of course, Power isn't even available in the early game, so what's the point. A side issue about morale: Assuming you can get decent unit upgrade facilities built, you can crank out units that are Comando from the factory. If they're infantry, one visit to the monolith will make them elite, and if they're not, the +1 movement isn't really as big a deal. Besides, if the unit lives long enough, the bump from commando to elite will come, and if not, there's another commando behind him, thanks to not having a 20% industry penalty.

                  So, really the only thing that needs to be fixed to make SE choices (more) balanced is to make support penalties scale in the same way that industry and growth do. Sadly, I don't really think that would make the game any better.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Thank you CEO Aaron. As always with your posts, it was a cogent and salient analysis.

                    Crawlers, and to a lesser extent, clean reactors seem to be chief offenders in contributing to the obsolescence of SUPPORT, or at least rendering it facile. The fact that the AI, among its other issues, can't make use of either worth a damn doesn't help.

                    Some things in my mod will attempt to tame the exploitative nature of the industry/growth paradigm skewed to the player's benefit. Too many things are hard-coded, alas, to make as much as a dent as one would want but things can be tweaked.

                    Whereas SMAC was pretty balanced all-around I think SMAX was rushed out the door with little playtesting, IMO. Some things about it are pretty rough. Of course, I'm ecstatic that we have it rather than not at all.

                    Though if I could murder the Facedit program in its sleep, I would.
                    "I wake. I work. I sleep. I die. The dark of space my only sky. My life is passed, and all I've been will never touch the earth again." --The Ballad of Sky Farm 3, Anonymous, Datalinks

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