Defending with Gaians

[Littiz]

This thread recalled me how deep the game is and made me impatient to play again.

Haven't even read it wholly

Has anybody thought about some way to collect and store in a "handy package" of some sort all of this priceless knowledge of the forums?
Much too work, I fear...

[Verrucosus]

There is the comprehensive Strategy Guide written by Velociryx. It was published in 2001 and is heavily influenced by the forum discussions until then. As far as I know no exhaustive treatise has been written since.

Verrucosus

[Zeiter]

Originally posted by Hydro
Some AIs turn faster than others. Aggressive AIs (Santiago, Hive, Believers) are totally untrustworthy. Erratic faction (Uni, PKs) are only a bit less so, and will go south pretty fast if you run social engineering (SE) that they dislike. The more passive AIs (Gaians, Morgan, Cyborgs) can be cultivated and be friendly for the game if you keep SE that is at least neutral, but if you have an antagonistic SE (say, you’re running free market with Gaian allies) then be prepared for fireworks.

That said, I have had luck with bribes. In one memorable multiplayer game as the Hive I was able to keep the Gaians and PKs as my allies for almost the whole game. The key is to get them early, try to avoid SEs they hate, have no contested borders that are a source of conflict, bribe them shamelessly, and be the enemy of a faction that is attacking them. Good ‘ol Lal was even willing to overlook my Hivean police state for suitable…compensation.

Hydro

Bribes work wonderfully. I don't know where people are getting this idea that you can't maintain a non-submissive pact throughout the entire game. The key is to constantly trade your tech to your pact mate for cash (or tech, if possible). I first came up with this strategy one day when I wanted to play a game but didn't have much time to spare. I kept on trading tech for whatever I could get just to speed up the global research progress. Whenever you get a new tech, trade the tech to your pact mate for cash and keep your pact mate up at your tech level. Don't give your pact mate a reason to probe you (which is how pacts most often end, in my experience). Put probes in all of your bases if need be (this isn't a bad idea anyways). And once you trade a tech to your pact mate, the tech is already out there, so you might as well trade the tech with all other non-threatening factions (of course, you should probably make an exception to that if you have a beefy Hive presence sitting right next door and you are contemplating trading SFF or something like that.) Because of getting all the cash, you can rushbuild a whole lotta stuff, and pretty soon your research rate will be waaaay outpacing all others, which you can use to bring in even more cash. The only thing you need to do is maintain probe teams a small border force (since you might have a pact mate at tech parity next-door). If AI's somehow get too far ahead of you while doing this, then you can always probe/conquer before things get out of hand. Another plus side to all of this is that the whole global research rate speeds up dramatically because everybody is swapping techs and is kept relatively up-to-date thanks to your generosity (which makes for shorter games). If you keep this free-and-easy tech trading up, the pacifist AI's will stick with you until the end...usually.

On a slightly related note, I also found a way to get submissive pactmates without war. In this one game, I as Domai was about 3 times as strong as Cycon, my neighbor. Cycon was behaving belligerently (incursions into my territory, unwillingness to trade, etc.), although we were still treatied. I figured I might as well conquer Cycon. I geared up my military and had about a total of 20 units stationed all along our broad border, in about 4 groups of five each, manning all of the main practical roads and passes into my territory, waiting in bunkered, forested, sensored squares, just waiting to strike. It was going to be an easy blitzkrieg, that much was obvious. About 2 turns before I was ready to launch it, Cycon calls me up in a "submssive" mood and immediately offered a pact. I accepted. Then Cycon offered a tech totally free of charge. A few turns later, I called up Cycon again, and Cycon offered up another tech totally free of charge without even being prompted. I kept about a third of my strike units on the border for the rest of the game and sent the others off to do other work. I figured that if Cycon ever terminated the pact, then I'd just wipe them out. But Cycon's submissiveness continued for the rest of the game, even after my power skyrocketed and after my integrity started falling.

[Hydro]

It is funny how submissives come about. In one memorable game ages ago my Gaians had an amazing stroke of luck and got 4 or 5 worms early. I only had 2 bases, and the Believers were just inland of me. So I called Miriam up. She was submissive and demanded she give me her new base or I’d crush her like a bug. She caved, which was good for her or I have unleashed Worm Terror on her orange butt. Needless to say, she was not a threat after that since I’d just gotten an oh-so-wonderful free base when it really mattered. The Believers were forever crippled, which is a good thing since she would eventually decide that my Gaians were witches and needed to be burned at the stake.

The AI does (sometimes) respect military power, especially when they have no way of countering it.

Hydro

[Kaleidoscope]

I was playing a game just last night, where I was at war with Morgan. I had no bases near him, so I traded one from the University. I was also at war with the Gaians and the Believers at the time.
I had only one or two outdated infantry units in this one single base, right on his border, with the Gaians sitting only a short hop on the other side - a lot of factions squeezed onto one continent.
Morgan was probing that one base about five times every turn and my nearest troops were on the other side of the world, on an 150x150 map.
I call him up one turn for whatever reason and he goes submissive and asks for a truce. I say no, for a laugh, and he instantly capitulates, giving me new techs and nearly 2000 energy credits. I have no idea why he would do this.

[Hydro]

Now THAT is hilarious! Your military power must have been much bigger overall, or the combination of base size, military, tech etc. There is also a random factor of AI 'mood'. Maybe you caught him on a good (or bad?) day!

Hydro

[JMO707]

Originally posted by Hydro
Now THAT is hilarious! Your military power must have been much bigger overall, or the combination of base size, military, tech etc. There is also a random factor of AI 'mood'. Maybe you caught him on a good (or bad?) day!

Hydro

I didnt even know than that was possible

[Blake]

I think this submission story should take the cake. It involves Miriam, surprise.

I was playing... I can't remember what faction actually, but the important thing was it was an atrocious map settings, something like large map, flat/arid.
So I was on my island minding my own business, had got the WP and was terraforming away happily.

Out of the blue, an orange foil sails up to my island.

Conversation goes like this:
Miriam: I hate you!
Me: You've only just met me. Whatever.
Miriam: Gimmie this or die!
Me: No?
Miriam: I SURRENDER!
Me: Huh?


It turned out that Miriam was on a tiny arid island, without a single (land) tile capable of producing food. She had neglected to get Cent.Eco so suffice to say the Believer economy didn't exactly exist. Because she had no hammers to support units she didn't really have any army and thus her power was even lower than mine (I was playing pacifist, being alone on an Island).

But what I especially liked is that Miriam took ALL the initiative in surrendering herself, it was as if surrendering to the first faction they met was their very deliberate game plan after discovering that God, does not always provide .

As a side note I shipped some formers and sea formers over to her island so the move did pay off I guess .

[Kaleidoscope]

Poor, old, rubbish Miriam.
You can always count on the Believers for a laugh.

As an aside - what long-term effect does submission have on an AI faction, in terms of their overall strategy, expansion and base-building, warmongering, research, etc...

[Hydro]

I had a similar game where I was happily terraforming away as the Gaians, Santiago pulls up with a transport and a few military units, declares war with dialog that sounds like Blake’s, and when I tell her to shove off she surrenders. Like Blake’s Miriam, Santiago was trapped on a small island and the AI didn’t have the smarts to plop a colony on one of the many unoccupied islands or continents.

As to how a submitted faction effects strategy:
• They will remain loyal no matter what you do as long as you don’t commit any atrocities against them (note that to my knowledge a faction will not surrender if you have committed atrocities against them beforehand).
• The AI will call you up to gift you technology, but not always. If you call them up they will give you what they’ve got, or at least will give it if you ask. You can also demand energy. You can try to demand bases, but they may or may not agree.
• I’ve noticed that the AI may stop expanding once they’re submissive. This can get a little complicated if you’re in mid game, they have a faction with which they are at war – in other words, they may be distracted and expansion is off the table.
• The submitted faction will vote for your proposals in Council, which can sometimes be useful for votes that don’t depend on your population/influence.
• A submitted faction can be a pain to defend
• You can ask a submitted faction to declare war on factions you don’t like. This is useful to prevent them from selling or gifting technology to a faction you have designs on. They will dutifully send troops to the front, or gift you their generally useless troops for the war effort. Note that once they declare war this will never go away since, as the dialog goes, they’ve been ‘paid to destroy faction XXX’. This is problematic if you have two submitted factions that are at war with each other!
• A submitted faction will probe you. You can either ignore it or re-declare war and exterminate them. It is better to have a defensive probe (infantry based probes are very cheap) since I’ve never had a submissive attack a probe-defended base.

Overall I really like the submissive pact of SMAC. This means I don’t have to eradicate every bloody faction, and it makes political sense. I haven’t seen this function in a way anywhere near as well as SMAC in any other TBS game.

Hydro

[Kaleidoscope]

I just had a couple of interesting experiences:

In a game I played just a few minutes ago on easy/tiny map Yang (whom I had conquered and forced to submit) declared vendetta on me for using Planet Busters on Lal, even though I had already overturned the Atrocity Prohibiton in Council.
None of the other factions I had conquered (Morgan and Miriam (Santiago was eliminated)) seemed to have a problem with this.

Also; Morgan - whom I had thoroughly conquered and forced to submit, but had not harrassed since that time - launched a suprise attack on me while comms were down due to sunspots. This had nothing to do with any Atrocities as I hadn't commited any at that time. I nuked him into oblivion with nary a complaint from any other faction.
(This happened before the Yang conflict)

Maybe the AI is.. evolving.

*thows devil computer out the window*

[Hydro]

Wow, that’s weird. I’ve never had a submissive faction surprise attack me on purpose (see below). Maybe others can shed some light on these situations.

There can be accidental surprise attacks on you by an ally. Say you have 2 AI factions that are allied (submissive or otherwise) to you, and that the 2 allied factions are at war with each other. If you have a unit from 1 allied faction in your base the other faction will attack it – and you in the process. Was this the situation you observed?

Hydro

[CEO Aaron]

Nah, AI behavior can just get snarky and weird.

The 'How to Win Friends and Influence People through Tech Trading' strat is not one that I've ever tried, simply because I'd found that letting my techs get out invariably winds up letting them into the hands of my foes, though I can definitely see the logic of assuming that they WILL get out and just reap the rewards of being first. That said, I've been playing lots of Sparta in police state lately, so I haven't really been cornering the tech market, and instead have been rather ruthlessly tech raping everyone I can find.

Playing a jackbooted Sparta also makes for very few friends, since Yang is to aggressive to be trustworthy, and most other factions take issue with my politics, and if that weren't enough, there's the problem where I just rip off your techs instead of paying for them.

[Petek]

Originally posted by Hydro
Wow, that’s weird. I’ve never had a submissive faction surprise attack me on purpose (see below). Maybe others can shed some light on these situations.

A submissive Yang once attacked me. He complained about an atrocity I supposedly committed (which I hadn't). The consensus opinion was that some other faction committed the atrocity, but framed me.

[Kaleidoscope]

Originally posted by Hydro
Was this the situation you observed?

Hydro

No, not in this case. There was a general melee of everyone being allied or in a submissive state towards me, but tearing each-others throats out, but I had no friendly units in my bases that I'm aware of.
I waited for the sun-spots to disperse before retaliating, so that I could contact Morgan and see what he had to say for himself, but he just ignored me.

Sadly a terminal case of PlanetBusteritis rendered him unable to ever say anything again shortly afterwards.