Factions and SE choices, what does it mean?

[Rand Al'Tor]

Perhaps half belonging here, half in the Fiction forum, but a thread inspiredme to consider how different factions might interpret SE choices, making for entirely different games. For this exercise,I'll mainly think of Political and economical choices.
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Lord's Believers

Fundamentalist: Well, that's not really too hard. The point where simple becomes fundamentalist should probably be seen where the Conclave is formed and otherreligions are banned.

Democratic: Not her favourite, but under the right circumstances Miriam might 'soften up' Other religions (or lackof any) get tolerated, the church takes a few steps back from political affairs.(Alternatively, the churches keep ruling, but the (Conclave-approved) priests get elected) Of course, Believers will be Believers,so secular science still gets distrusted, and most people remain devoted. Of course, one imagines that there's a Constitution putting some religion-inspired limits, and the Conclave and Mirriam are entirely willing to scrap the democracy.

Police State: Main reason I see Miriram going this road is when there's so many 'Heathens' that plain old indoctrinating doesn't work, and brute force is used to keep people in line. Either she uses a military organization besides the church,or the church itself becomesmore militaristicI actually imagine Miriam'd hate this. From the original story, she looked like she does care about people's well being, fanatic cookie that she is. Having people routinely shot in the street doesn't seem her style.

Free Market: Ah, now these are harder.If Mirriam'd go free market, I'd imagine priests'd be preaching about lifting the soil, not being slothful, etc, etc. Churches wouldlikely be all you got 'welfare-wise' Of course, companies would be expected to be 'virtuous', on pain of being decried by priests (which would be a death sentence to any company) or straight out banned. The churches themselves as companies? Depends on your view, but I don't see Godwinson tolerating that.

State Controlled:Likely taking more a few pages about solidarity. Miriam/the Conclave basically stating it's everyone's Christian duty to helpthose poorer of, and not allowing sinful greed and selfishness. Likely, churches would be the hub in the whole thing.

Green: Mirriam/The COnclave couldalso decree that, whilePlanet is the birthright of humanity and a gift from god, they're darn well going to take good care of it. Polluting isn't just banned, but a sin against God. Churches are always on the lookout for people defiling the Promised Land

[Hydro]

This is good grist for fiction and can be used as fiction for all factions. The only exception is Yang who is pretty linear, except in late game when other SE is available.

For instance, there was some great fiction by Googlie years ago about a totalitarian Morgan, Spartan Chronicles had a police state Sparta (which isn't hard to imagine), I recall an excellent short story about a stone-hearted Deirdre (think major atrocities - Morgan Industries being burned to the ground), a desperate Dee using nerve gas, and I've done an empathetic and sympathetic Miriam. You can find a rationale for almost all of the choices if you put your mind to it, and particularly given a set of circumstances.

Hydro

[Xian]

Look up the area of anthropology called "cultural determinism."

[Rand Al'Tor]

Yep, the thing I most like about SMAC is how, while some factions' ideology is more...'palpatable' to us than others,all the SMAC factions really have a society one feels could work, and you can imagine being part of it. (something some factions have a lot less)

The Hive

Police State: Obviously. Probably should be seen as the moment where Yang crushes any illusions about the UN becoming all nice and democratic.

Fundamentalist: Would Yang do this? First question is what religion it would be, as Yang sounds pretty non-religous. He might deify himself, Chinese Emperor style (After all, he served an Emperor once). Still, it would not be his favourite style of rule. Religous fervor can be hard to control, leads to suspicion of science and demands that the ruler follows the rules set by the religion. Yang wants the people to be under one unfettered will, his.

Free Market: It might sound impossible to initiate free market policies in The Hive, but it could work. Even in a brutal Police State, you'll have people more competent and in charge of stuff, presumably with more creature comforts and priveledges. Have them directly compete with eachother. Simple Workers are allowed to buy small Yang-approved luxuries (Indeed, spending may even becomemandatory). CEO's force them to work huge hours to meet Yang's energy demands. Think 'Paranoia' minus the insane Computer. Alternatively, the products produced could be for a small elite, and most of the populace would simply be 'human resources' in the most dehumanizing way, slaves the companies sell and buy from eachother. Yang wouldn't really like the loss of control, and the divisiveness, but it gets results.

State Controlled: Much more 'traditional' No luxuries here, and even climbing the ladder, you'll not get as much as Free Market Hive. However, no starving Workers here... unless the entire city is starving of course. Much more direct control for Yang, but he'd deplore the lack of energy it gives.

Green: And why not? Yang is pragmatic, and the Planet tends to punish wastefulness. Not to mention, Yang tends to punish wastefulness. In such a society, damaging the environment gets you killed in pretty short order. Only problem is that as I imagine it, Green means severely limiting population, and Yang does like to sprawl.

[Hydro]

Yang’s fundamentalism would be state-enforced atheism, which has all the hallmarks of religion (or, perhaps, anti-religion). However, there would be little reason to use fundi since The Hive gets Police State SE without penalty. That plus no penalty for Planned makes Yang’s SE pretty linear for me.

Hydro

[CEO Aaron]

Re: Factions and SE choices, what does it mean?

Well, I think this gets complicated trying to convert game concepts into real-world analogies, because there's considerable overlap in a number of these ideas, in practice. For example, a strict adherence to religious dogma imposed on the citizens of a state IS a police state. It's just a police state that is clothed in superstition and tradition in lieu of more modern ideas. Even the Third Reich, arguably the archetypal police state, borrowed on a considerable amount of religious dogma, both of traditional extraction, and the cockamamey sort that Hitler and his croneys invented.

But I suppose I am in danger of digressing off topic. Here's my take on how SE choices will modify the Believer society:

Fundamentalist: Also known as True Believers, this is just a more dogmatic, aggressive and intolerant version of the vanilla Believers.

Democratic: The Believers in Democracy very much remind me of the Christian Coalition or other evangelical organizations which exert a great influence on American politics today. While a true fundamentalism would simply impose sectarian laws, a democracy would impose them by referrendum.

Police State: Here's where I get confused. I suppose a Believer faction in Police would place more of an emphasis on military prowess as opposed to spiritual control. A valid comparison might be Saddam Hussein's Iraq of the 80s and 90s would be a police state, whereas Iran would be more representative of a Fundamentalism.

Free Market: Here's where things also get difficult. Part of the problem with a free market is you can't really a true free market in the absence of actual freedom, since the definition of a free market is one where any two parties are capable of engaging in trades free of coersion, where both parties profit. While its arguable that such conditions truly exist in a Democratic nation, they CAN NOT exist in an undemocratic one. Again, I find this is a condition where game mechanics cannot be truly analogous to real life. I suppose if such things are viewed as a matter of degrees, Miriam running Market would have lots of very successful Televangelists raking in the larger amounts of cash afforded by an laissez-faire system. Miriam's predisposition to be wasteful in her assurance that divine providence will excuse any kind of ecological disruption caused by her followers would be soundly compounded by the freewheeling absence of ecological controls demanded by an unregulated market. How you fit a low tolerance for police in there, I don't know. People with money don't like cops? Hmn.

Planned Economy: Here, the natural consort of a true fundamentalism, stifling hand of corrupt absolutism would mandate that only the religious elect would manage critical industries, in lieu of true competition. The sad part is that the game seems to think that such antics will produce more growth and output, while real life has repeatedly shown that this is not the case.

Green Economy: This one, also, really stymies me, since I've never considered a green economy and a free market to be truly antithetical. To be sure, in absence of responsible regulation, they appear to be at odds in western culture, but no one could argue that a free market had devastating ecological effects before the industrial revolution. Anyway, I suppose a Believer Green Economy would behave little different from anyone else's, namely using taxes, regulations and incentives to encourage both people and businesses to manage their waste responsibly.

[CEO Aaron]

Originally posted by Hydro
Yang’s fundamentalism would be state-enforced atheism, which has all the hallmarks of religion (or, perhaps, anti-religion). However, there would be little reason to use fundi since The Hive gets Police State SE without penalty. That plus no penalty for Planned makes Yang’s SE pretty linear for me.

Hydro

Actually, judging from most of Yang's quotes, it would be state-enforced Buddhism. However, yeah, why would Yang ever not use Planned/Police?

[Darrell01]

Well I know Rand read this post that went dangerously off topic. I talked about the political choices and what they meant to each faction. Of note, I talked about Fundamentalism in my second post and how its not just about following some religeon fervently. There is some ideology that is followed strictly and it has these benefits and consequences. Anyway, I don't want to just cut and paste. Take a look. I didn't go into what it means for the economic and values choices. These, to me, differ from faction to faction on how they implement them. For instance, Yang Fundamentalism would be like China's Little Red Book. Take a look at that if you want an idea. Hydro's ideas are viable as well. Anyway, we might switch back and forth between fundamentalist, police state and democracy. Every time we switch, the way they do it doesn't have to be the same, it just creates the safe effects. If someone wants to go ahead and write a list of what it means when each faction goes Power, go right ahead. Maybe I'll do it later, but I'm busy.

[Chaos Theory]

Planned economies (say, Iron Curtain Eastern Europe) have indeed exhibited the higher populations associated with +Growth, relative to free markets.

[CEO Aaron]

They started OUT with higher populations. However, if you want to see the real effects of a planned economy, check out this list of countriest ranked by population growth, and see how many former soviet republics populate the bottom of the list, most with negative population growth.

[Chaos Theory]

Checking demographics at Wikipedia, it looks like Eastern Europe had substantial population growth up to ~1990, after which it has had some population decline.

[Hydro]

I seem to recall Mao's imperiative to have as many children as possible and the resulting population explosion in China. Mao's China seems to be a Police/Planned economy model more so than the former USSR or eastern block. Of course, China now seems to be police/FM.

Hydro

[Rand Al'Tor]

I agree that the SE choices are, by necessity, arbitrary lines. When a faction picks free market, it usually means that it tends to have a general 'hands off' approach to economical issues, and not necessarely following the ideals of free-market as you may see them. (as State Cotnrolled does not mean the Faction Leader wants to create a Worker's Utopia.)

As such, I could easily see Yang work a Police State/Free Market. It's just that some people are 'contenders' with guaranteed rights to possessions (as long as they don't act subversively) and some people are just 'resources'. Alternatively, within the limitations dictated by Yang, you can own and buy whatever you want, and pay pretty damn little taxes.

Fundy Miriam's Free MArket would work similiarly. (And she'd have an easier time getting free market, as her society is less 'different' from our own) Of course, only virtuous companieswould be allowed, so no prostitution, gambling, drugs, etc. And considering the fervor of most Believers, companies freely choose to adopt a 'good Christian' demeanour.

And yes. Green is somewhat odd. Basically, it is'SC-FM mix with an accent on green' After all, it's not like a State Control faction leader can't use his control of the economy to demand responsible behaviour.

The same actually goes with the political thing. Not just between fundamentalism and police state, but between those two and democracy as well. Democracy lets people have political freedom (ignoring the 'permanent faction leader issue)' police state brutally represses, fundamentalism indoctrinates.

Of course, it's not like Yang (representing police state) doesn't indoctrinate, and Miriam (in a fundemantalism) doesn't have any police. But Yang's society's stability is dependant mostly on the fact that every Hiverian knows that moving against the rulers will get him punished or killed, even if he desires to do it. Miriam's citizens, should they do something against the rulers, are less likely to get a bunch of inquisitors on their doorstep, but they'd just be less likely to do so, and less liely to find people accepting something like that.

Regarding democracy. Well, democracy needs to have some police control, and it's normal to teach children the principles a society is based on. At what point does simple policing and education become oppression and indoctrination?

Anyway, I thought I'd give Pravin Lal a try.

Democracy: Easiest for him. Citizens have long lists of guaranteed rights. Just about any post you get by elections.

Fundamentalism: While we of course, just click in the SE window, I don't think this'd even be a conscious decision from Lal and the leadership. It'd just mean they'd become so damn eager to 'spread the democratic ideals of the UN' that it'd poison their very principles. Children aren't just taught about freedom and such, they're told that it's the UN's task, no, fate, to spread freedoma cross planet, liberating oppressed people everywhere from brutal oppression. ANd that while violence is wrong of course, the UN has a mandate to spread it, and you'repart of the UN. Elections are still held, and police control remains the same as it ever was, but people are... different.

Your mileage may vary, but I don't see Lal as making a cynical choice to start this. Rather, it might be the consequence of him losing sight of himself in his attempts to re-unite the mission and guarantee the freedoms of the colonists.

Economical choice: Combining them here for one thought. We always assume that the SE choices we make are the Faction Leaders making declarations from on high, but that might just be necessary for a game mechanic (and true sometimes) It doesn't always need to be. It's possible that Lal just lets elections decide economic direction. (not like you have a 'freemarket' party and a 'state control' party and a 'green' pa...Wait. that one IS possible.)

[Ogie Oglethorpe]

Originally posted by Hydro
This is good grist for fiction and can be used as fiction for all factions. The only exception is Yang who is pretty linear, except in late game when other SE is available.

For instance, there was some great fiction by Googlie years ago about a totalitarian Morgan, Spartan Chronicles had a police state Sparta (which isn't hard to imagine), I recall an excellent short story about a stone-hearted Deirdre (think major atrocities - Morgan Industries being burned to the ground), a desperate Dee using nerve gas, and I've done an empathetic and sympathetic Miriam. You can find a rationale for almost all of the choices if you put your mind to it, and particularly given a set of circumstances.

Hydro

I remember those. One of my favs was the SMAX short stories including the story of Domai being a manipulative political creature of an extreme Machievellian strain.

[Grand Cadfael]

Hmm... Spartans....

Democracy: The low ranked soldier's dream. A world where he is respected and has a voice in his community

Police State: Exact opposite of above^. Commanders prattle on about the "good of the state" to hide their incompetence. With the resulting graft and suicide charges.

Fundamentalism: War is made into a sort of god. Fighting is all that defines a person, without it your less than nothing. People who don’t throw their all into the war are spat upon, and egghead scientists are regarded as pathetic excuses for men.

Free Market Economy: a violent free for all, with soldiers swapping just about every thing and gambling their money away, a world where trades are made for private armys and ammunition sufficient to fight small wars

Planned Economy: A world where every scrap is rationed and all resources are devoted to the state(or in other words, the army), supplies are maneuvered all over the place with out reason or rhyme in order to keep up appearances of being busy.

Green Economy: Two ways to look at this. The first is that keeping in Planets good graces helps out greatly with survival. and the second well....lets put it this way: Mindworms kill stuff. Spartans kill stuff. The Spartans are willing to bend over backwards to get mindworm detachments in their army. Nuff said.

Emphasis on Power: This one seems obvious. There is a subtle difference though: regular Spartans are just gun-nuts that got a landing pod. These Spartans are (IMO) blood thirsty conquers in a Mongolian vein.

Knowledge: Santiago loves her artillery pieces, and will insure their up to date.