Probe teams

[Dave86]

Hello all I'm new to the boards. I registered so I could have this discussion: are probe teams cheap? I often find myself wishing I could delete the unit from the game. If you are scoring victory after victory and have an corps of elite units it seems like all it takes is a few energy credits and a couple turns to produce a probe team to engage a mind control probe and *poof* it all disappears in a cloud of lame probeness.
Sure you can fortify with a probe team yourself but should you not have sufficient time/minerals/presence of mind then you are screwed.
I've seen power graphs get inverted after probe team ops. Am I alone in this- should I go back to newbville and l2p? Also if there is a tip out there for actually removing these little darth-vader-lookalike punks from the game?

[CEO Aaron]

Well, probe teams are certainly fairly flexible and powerful, but I won't call them cheap, simply because they're an integral unit that every faction can get relatively quickly. Reading between the lines, it seems like you're having some difficulty countering enemy probe actions. Probes are pretty easy to counter if you're careful.

First of all, build your own, for both offence and defence. Second, learn to stack your units to prevent easy subversion. Third, if you're facing an enemy that likes to subvert lots of units, use your own probes to steal his energy reserves. If your enemy is low on cash, he won't be able to steal your units.

In my opinion, any serious offensive should come equipped with a couple of probe teams. They're ideal for disrupting enemy resistance and tearing down perimeter defences, and that's even before you start worrying about enemy probe action.

Finally, and this can't be emphasized enough, use scouting and infiltration to know what to expect when you invade your enemies. One probe action and you can see the build queues and garrisons of every base in your rival's empire.

[Verrucosus]

Welcome, Dave!

I don't see probes as that much of a problem. Using them for mind controls requires a ton of cash that could well be used for other purposes. That's not to say that mind control is not a powerful tool in the game, but its cost is enough of a tradeoff to keep it balanced. Also, I've often enough played Morgan thinking that I don't really need a proper defense because I can just bribe any attacker that comes along when Miriam showed up with a dozen of impact rovers.

I'm not much of a modder, but I think the probe team can be removed by opening the alpha.txt file and changing the "PlaNets" entries in the "Probe Team" lines both under "Weapons" and under "Units" to "Disable". There's a comprehensive guide about editing the alpha.txt file by Darsnan, but I don't have the link anymore. You might ask on the Creation Forum next door. It's awfully quiet there at the moment, but maybe they'll throw you a party for asking a question and stirring things up.

Verrucosus

[Rubin]

For the alpha/x.txt editing guide, please look here:

Civgaming.net: SMAC ACADEMY

Enjoy!

[Lazerus]

Girls use probe teams, men use gas choppers !

Another useful tip to add to the ones above is once you've got airpower using noodles to block roads (bomb if really necessary and you've got drop troops) thus preventing easy movement of probes so you don't succumb to something moving 5 squares and probing you. Try to take into account what tech stage your enemy is at and whether his probes will have 2 movement or 3 though (some techs increase probe morale incase you didn't know)

[Verrucosus]

Rubin, thank you for the link and sorry for not crediting you.

Verrucosus

[Aabraxan]

Welcome, Dave86!

You've already heard from players much better than I, but I will go so far as to say this: Sure, you probably could remove probe teams from the game. SMAC is very moddable. Wouldn't you rather blast the little b*****ds to atoms?

Build your own probes, infiltrate datalinks, steal cash, clear fungus, plant sensors, bomb roads, and nuke the city building them. See? Problem solved.

[Dave86]

Thanks for the tips. Especially the one that was made about energy reserves. It had never really occurred to me that you could fight probe actions in such a "roundabout" yet effective way.

[Flubber]

In PBEM games, it is pretty standard to place a probe team in ALL the bases on your frontier-- You can redesign the standard probe team and creat a version on an infantry chassis. It only costs 2 mineral rows instead of 3 for the regular version. For many bases thats only a single turns production so that is pretty cheap insurance

I do hope you come to love probe teams . To me they add a wonderful element to the game and proper play requires considering probe matters. If you sensor , patrol and probe defend the obvious spots, you should have little problem prevebting enemy probe actions from the AI.

[CEO Aaron]

Originally posted by Dave86
Thanks for the tips. Especially the one that was made about energy reserves. It had never really occurred to me that you could fight probe actions in such a "roundabout" yet effective way.

I have always perferred the term: 'devious'.

[Hydro]

You have to be pretty careful protecting yourself against the AI since they seem to be able to subvert units and bases on-the-cheap. Stealing the AI's energy reserves will help but I wouldn't count on it saving you, particularly if they have a good probe rating (such as Believers running fundi and Angels). Many consider this an AI cheat built into the game, but you need to be aware of it and live with it.

If you play against a human you will be punished severely if you ever drop your probe guard. As others have said, every perimeter base should have at least a defensive infantry-based probe. Consider armoring them (synthmetal will do – this is relatively inexpensive on infantry probes but expensive on speeder probes before fusion power) since one blast with artillery (conventional or spoor launcher) will reduce the effectiveness of an unarmored probes to almost nothing, and then you're meat. Armored probes can also help in military defense, but not much. In my MP games I have a core reserve of move 2 probe teams at key staging areas to respond to an invasion - just in case. I'm a relative novice at MP and others may have additional hints. Note that a tiered probe defense works very well against the AI since their attacks are much more disjointed that a human's might be.

I play the Gaians most and you may be surprised that my hybrid play features probe teams prominently. I just love to b-line for Doct: Flex, build cheapo 1-1-2 foils, use them to capture a few Isles of the Deep (long before anyone else is at sea), load them with speed 2 probes very early in the game, and go hunting. Infiltrating an enemy early is absolutely huge, as is stealing key early techs and causing a bit if mayhem. It also strikes fear into a Builder that is busy polishing his ivory towers and punishes an overstretched Conquer in their style of play – hit them where they’re weak, hehe. In this situation if you think you’re safe in 2140 without a probe defense against a human player then you are sadly mistaken and will (as the Star Wars Emperor said) be ‘punished for your lack of vision’.

Consider getting a copy of Vel’s strategy guide. It has lots of hints on probe teams for defense and offense.

Hydro

[Flubber]

Originally posted by Hydro
You have to be pretty careful protecting yourself against the AI since they seem to be able to subvert units and bases on-the-cheap. Stealing the AI's energy reserves will help but I wouldn't count on it saving you, particularly if they have a good probe rating (such as Believers running fundi and Angels). Many consider this an AI cheat built into the game, but you need to be aware of it and live with it.

Agree completely--although I find with the unmodified AI that I can usually adopt a "kill them on the way in" approach. The AI is very predictable in its selection of invasion routes and once you spot its units , they seem to keep coming the same way

Originally posted by Hydro

If you play against a human you will be punished severely if you ever drop your probe guard.

And possibly even if you are vigilent. I recall fighting Mongoose tooth and nail in a PBEM and the key turning point was when I managed to probe away a base that had two or three probe defenders. The base had an aerocomplex and several best-defender AA troops so capturing it would have been tough-- But two cruiser barrages and 3 or 4 elite MCC-aided probecruisers later and it was mine. It did cost something like 3000 credits but was well worth it.

Originally posted by Hydro

. In my MP games I have a core reserve of move 2 probe teams at key staging areas to respond to an invasion - just in case. I'm a relative novice at MP and others may have additional hints. Note that a tiered probe defense works very well against the AI since their attacks are much more disjointed that a human's might be.

Smart-- oh and always place this reserve OUTSIDE your bases... It makes it much tougher on an invader if they have no idea where a probe unit is. Do this with probeships as well. A couple of unaccounted-for probeships can cause an opponent to expend lots and lots of efforts trying to protect against them

[Leon Trotsky]

I sometimes place some clean scout patrols at choke points to make enemy movemet more difficult, is that too bad? (I'm thinking about the possibility of giving the enemy a chance to train their troops safely with that cannon fodder).