My First Time Playing!

[El_Cid]

Hi, i've not been in this forum before despite having owned SMAC for over 4years!

My guilty admission is that this week(from monday infact) had been the first time i really sat down to play this game. By 'really' i mean that i have had a cursory glance at it before - the game has been sitting on my harddrive for four long years, not getting the attention it obviously deserved.

Anyway know i have been playing it, in fact its been impossible for me to put it down! All i can say is i feel a total clutz for not giving this game a real try before now.

So i'd like to join the band of brothers that venerate SMAC as one of the all time great computer games if thats ok with you

As i digest the experiences i've had with this game so far i'll probably post some other stuff about what exactly makes this game(too my mind so far) a worthy contender for possible best tbs. Its got some stiff compition from games like Civ(obviously) and Xcom(my current no1 tbs).

All i can say is i'm loving it - its blown me away in the same six months the much hyped Oblivion fell flat on its face for me. So i can really understand the affection longtime SMAC fans have for the game. It really was/is a masterstroke of tbs genius and we really need more games like it(rather than Oblivion imho) to save gaming on the pc imo.

So thats it really, a kind of introductory hi with my SMAC background so far. I feel ashmed that as a well travelled games player i've only discovered this game so recently.

[Hydro]

Hello El_Cid!

Welcome to SMAC! Your story is great – better after 4 years than never, eh? SMAC has developed a devoted following, and now you can see some if its appeal.

There are lots of great SMAC tacticians, strategists, and even philosophers here at the Apolyton SMAC forum. Without exception they LOVE answering questions (kind of strokes the ego). Feel free to ask about features that seem odd, amusing, rather dumb, or amazing.

The SMAC forum also has a fairly large archive of scholarly work on how SMAC works and how to get the most out of the game. These are buried in old posts, and folks can point you to them if there is a topic-of-interest.

If you really like SMAC there is also an add-on called SMAX which adds features and factions. It may be available, but may take some digging.

Hydro

[Aabraxan]

Welcome, El_Cid!

This is the place to be for SMAC. Everything you need can be had here, including great advice and an FAQ that apparently nobody reads.

I'm a SMAC newbie myself, having only recently even gotten the game.

Welcome!

[CEO Aaron]

A hearty, if belated, welcome, El Cid. We're always glad to have new folks in the SMAX community, we few who appreciate the pinnacle of Civ-style gaming. You'll find that in spite of the rather weak AI, SMAX has an unrivalled amount of depth and intricacy in it, and has absolutely the best replay value of any computer game I've ever played. Enjoy!

[El_Cid]

Thanks for the replies

I've now played a full game with the SNAC mod(i think thats how its called) and am very impressed with the ramp up in difficulty level(played on Talent setting).
I'd played and completed two(and a half) other games with vanilla SMAC(again on Talent), and generaly found it alot easier.

I do have a question though - one thing that happend with the SNAC mod was that for 80% of the game i was behind the top two factions, it was almost impossible for me to keep a tech lead until near the very end. Compared to vanilla SMAC i would normaly be far out in front by halfway through the game, so it is an improvement in terms of how the AI stays competitive.
The only thing i didn't like much in SNAC was the proliferation of sea-bases(spread out in a uniform 2 spaces then build another one etc) in the last half of the game - a sort of Infinate city sprawl, which i haven't seen so dramaticaly in the vanilla game?

Still i'm wondering if i want a longer drawn out game, with a decent level of challange, i could just play vanilla SMAC on higher difficulty setting and maybe with the slower tech discovery option on?

So what i'm asking is should i just ramp up the difficulty, and if so what kind of things can i expect to see the AI do differently?
I'm hoping to avoid ICS, especialy as i havent been able to find an easy and quick method of destroying a city yet.

Anyway i'm still very much loving it and i'm a big fan of the wonder movies, they are really great I haven't yet been able to build them all in one game, but i've got close.

[Hydro]

El_Sid,

If you don’t like ICS consider a smaller map. This also means the game will play faster (potentially) with less tedious micromanagement of a gazillion bases.

Now, if you are a perfectionist the values isolation then that may not be much fun since you’ll likely be close and personal to AIs who will likely decide your nice bases would made a fine addition to their empire.

Good luck!
Hydro

[El_Cid]

Its true i usualy play all my games on the largest possible map(a habit i got from CTP1+2). I'll try a smaller one and see how that goes, but as you say it could cramp my style(builder).

I tried a game with 'slow tech progression' and got badly nailed(i was constantly last untill quitting out of a no-win situation) and wondered if that option only applies to the player and not the AI's? They seemed to be fielding much better units than i could from game start. I had put the difficulty level two notches higher than Talent, so maybe this was the reason.
Does the AI get tech advantages as you increase the game level?

ICS was a big problem in the origonal version of CTP1+2 as well, the modders came up with many interesting ways around this, but i suspect its part of the challange for experienced SMACers.

Still i cant grumble - i've found a new tbs game to play(SMAC)

Thats a phrase that will get rarer by the year i suspect.

[Hydro]

El_Cid,

Yes, the AI does get advantages that increase as the difficulty of the game increases. It costs the AI less columns of minerals to build any given item and less research points to attain a tech. Here is a quick summary:

Librarian is where everything is approximately even. At easier levels the human player has an advantage.

At easier levels:
* Easier diplomacy – the AI is more likely to ‘play nice’ and less likely to gang up on you (even if it doesn’t seem like it!)
* At Citizen, Specialist, and Talent level the AI can’t mind control your bases – but you can mind control theirs.
* At Talent and below, the AI won’t start SPs until you do. Sometimes if they get a tech needed for a SP very early you many have little chance of catching up.
* No penalty for changing production at Citizen and Specialist levels (otherwise you lose 50% of everything over 10 minerals)
* Less random events such as power overloads
* Less cost to change your social model

The AI cost vs human cost for production is:
* Citizen – 13 minerals/row (130% cost)
* Specialist – 12 min/row
* Talent 11 min/row
* Librarian 10 min/row – normal
* Thinker – 8 min/row
* Transcend – 7 min/row (the AI has a very big advantage here)
**Note that costs are further reduced for everyone on small and tiny maps where items cost to 90% and 80%, respectively

Base growth – similar to the cost of production (cost AI more at easier levels, more nutrients at higher levels)

That’s all I can think of now. Others may have more tips.

Hydro

[El_Cid]

Great info - thank you

I have slowly been realising a thing about SMAC, and i wonder if in part it is part of Brian Reynolds design philosophy?
Ok here goes - I find the games dont last long enough. dont shoot me!(with a plasma defender!).
Bare with this as it's not meant as a crushing critism of an excellent game.
What i've found these last few weeks is that if i have one over-riding feeling left to me by SMAC, it is that i want more!
It takes me no longer than a day(or two max) to either win the game or get into a total no-win situation. I always play on the largest maps, i even tried using slower tech progression.

Whatever i try i find my wonderfull SMAC journey is often over just as i'm getting right into it. Is it just me or do others find this?

Now looking at RoN, with its emphersis on quick(1hour long if you like) games, and having now put a dozen SMAC games under my belt; i wonder if this feeling i'm left with(of wanting a longer game) is because of a particular design goal?

Anyway, i'm abusing my SMAC newbie status and mostly i'm interested if other SMAC fans would have loved much longer games, maybe games that would take months to play through?

Man i love that intro - its sooo relevant to the world today, its not funny!

[CEO Aaron]

Well, the length of the game is often dictated by your tactics as much as the map or other factors. I assume you're going for the all out gusto of conquest and political victory?

If so, you owe it to yourself to play the game all the way to transcendence. And speaking of transcendence, try cranking the difficulty up. Higher difficulty levels slow your tech rate and also hamper your growth by putting more drones in your way. These factors collude to make the game more interesting.

That said, one of the long lamented weaknesses of this great game is the absolutely token AI, who engages in the weakest kind of terraforming, overbuilds mediocre units, doesn't expand nearly aggressively enough, and is content to hurl massive numbers of hopelessly outclassed troops into your prepared defences.

The upshot is that experienced players will frequently adopt other methods to hamper their play to make the AI more challenging, by either enhancing the AI, or playing under conditions that hamper themselves.

It seems to me that as an experienced Civ player, you should have little difficulty taking this game on at the Thinker Difficulty level. Play a few games through, to make sure you're familiar with the tech tree and such, then start playing on Transcend. I actually recommend avoiding huge maps, as in my opinion, they serve only to highten player advantage over the AI.

Without delving into the game files to modify units and/or factions, here's some basic things you can do to make for an interesting and prolonged game:

Large or Smaller map size.
Abundatn Rainfall and Native life.
Tech Stagnation.
Disable Diplomatic Victory

That should prevent the quicker shortcuts to winning, as well as softening the progression towards tech and give the AI more of a chance to maintain tech parity. The abundant rainfall will help the AI out with its spotty terraforming, and the natives will keep you honest in your efforts to expand and explore. Give it a try!

[Xian]

I play Alpha Centauri religiously and Ive never beaten a game in less than 3 days, even with 3 hour long 100+ turn sessions

Then again, I always go for transcendence victory so I dunno

[El_Cid]

Originally posted by CEO Aaron
Well, the length of the game is often dictated by your tactics as much as the map or other factors. I assume you're going for the all out gusto of conquest and political victory?

I'm a 'builder' by nature and never attack first, just in self-defence. So my playing style suits a longer game.

If so, you owe it to yourself to play the game all the way to transcendence. And speaking of transcendence, try cranking the difficulty up. Higher difficulty levels slow your tech rate and also hamper your growth by putting more drones in your way. These factors collude to make the game more interesting.

I've only ever won the transcendence victory conditions!(three times now ). I've tried some of the other options - kinda nearly got a diplomatic victory one time, but the AI's at this late stage invariably start getting close to transcendence themselves, so kind of force my hand.

That said, one of the long lamented weaknesses of this great game is the absolutely token AI, who engages in the weakest kind of terraforming, overbuilds mediocre units, doesn't expand nearly aggressively enough, and is content to hurl massive numbers of hopelessly outclassed troops into your prepared defences.

The upshot is that experienced players will frequently adopt other methods to hamper their play to make the AI more challenging, by either enhancing the AI, or playing under conditions that hamper themselves.

It seems to me that as an experienced Civ player, you should have little difficulty taking this game on at the Thinker Difficulty level. Play a few games through, to make sure you're familiar with the tech tree and such, then start playing on Transcend. I actually recommend avoiding huge maps, as in my opinion, they serve only to highten player advantage over the AI.

Yes i've worked out the Thinker level was about right for me - i spend most of the game behind the AI's in just about everything but dont loose touch with them(mostly!). And i've actualy been finding the AI's quite a handfull militarily? I usualy play as either the Spartans(to get one less aggressive civ out of the mix) or the Gaians. The Spartans seem to be better able to make friends than the Gaians, almost eveyone gives the Gaians a hard time diplomaticaly it seems?
I think i need practice on the military units side of things as untill late in the game i seem to suffer quite a few losses.

Without delving into the game files to modify units and/or factions, here's some basic things you can do to make for an interesting and prolonged game:

Large or Smaller map size.
Abundatn Rainfall and Native life.
Tech Stagnation.
Disable Diplomatic Victory

That should prevent the quicker shortcuts to winning, as well as softening the progression towards tech and give the AI more of a chance to maintain tech parity. The abundant rainfall will help the AI out with its spotty terraforming, and the natives will keep you honest in your efforts to expand and explore. Give it a try!

Sounds good - will the abundant native life also keep the AI's in check? I hope so as on the higher dificulty levels they seem to expand quite rapidly(especialy tech wise) in my few games so far.

Thanks for the pointers - i'm sure they will help me on my way to some of the other victories

@Xian well i often spend a whole day playing(talking 10hrs or so), so i can finish the game in one session if it all goes to plan. My remarks were more curious ponderings than anything else, having had a go at RoN - but finding the notion of 'build an empire in your lunch break' not exactly why i like to build empires in computer games. So this just came to mind after my first few victories in SMAC. Compared to Civ it does seem a shorter game on default settings?

I've 'found' another thing - i select 'on' all the 'pause for message' options as this puts back in place the strong tbs element. on the default install options i found things could move a little too fluidly for my tastes?

I'm now looking for the expansion pack - but the prices on ebay are a little crazy! reminds me of Daggerfall, which i did get a good deal on with some patience, so i'll follow the same patern for SMAC's expansion.

Thanks all for you suggestions so far

[Sikander]

Don't neglect the builder's greatest defense (at least until Air Power): The probe team

These are great for the player who is behind in military tech, as they are equally effective against all land units and give you the opportunity to build the captured unit. Or you can redesign the captured unit and take advantage of technology you haven't yet researched in a way more pleasing to you.

[El_Cid]

Ah yes - that would definately help on the harder difficulty settings. I like to build as many 'wonders' as possible, and i've been finding that increasingly difficult now i'm playing on Thinker. Thank you, i had overlooked that option

[molly bloom]

You realize you may soon have to attend A.C.A.A. meetings on a regular basis ?


And say goodbye to regular sleep patterns....


"just one more turn..."