Can someone explain to me how to "instabuild" SP quickly by using crawlers?

[Xian]

http://www.civgaming.net/smac/acad_instabuild.shtml

^^^I don't understand a single thing written there. I usually build SPs the way I build any other base facilitiy - queue it up make sure the mineral production of the base is high enough (sometimes using crawlers for additional minerals) and pray like hell. Usually in the mid and late game I will pay to rush them but otherwise nothing particular.

Can someone explain to me a better way?

[Leon Trotsky]

I have been wondering that myself. I guess that means building crawlers as mad before getting the prerequisite tech, and once you have acquired it, upgrade them to exploit the reduced upgrade cost and cash them. In the meantime, you send them to work the best tile available (among the closest ones, that is).

Then again, I'm just a newbie - you'd better heed the veterans' advice.

[Lazerus]

The method described in that article is basically what Leon has just said, you gather enough crawlers so that if you cash them all in you can build the SP in one turn.
Cash rich factions can upgrade them (ie, prototype a unit with plasma armour and then you can upgrade crawlers to 0-3-1 trance) to cash in for more minerals, high industry factions tend to be better off saving their pennies and just building loads of cheap ones.

This has the advantage that people don't know you're able to build it and might delay one turn in their own effort for it allowing you to jump in and steal.
If you've never used crawlers to hurry a SP before all you need to do is move them to the base building it and like an AA you'll be given the option of disbanding to hurry its production. This means you don't have to rely on a single base building the project and instead it can be a joint effort between several bases producing crawlers, therefore much faster production possible.

Welcome to the world of being able to build 5 SP's in a single turn without blinking

edit, However as it points out lower down, if at all possible try to make sure you have excess crawlers ! otherwise your productivity will be crippled after disbanding some to grab the SP and your opponent might then get a future more valuable SP before you.

[waab]

It is a Laz says, BUT do not use that in single player or you will destroy the game. The AI is crap when it comes to using crawlers so keep it down.

When it comes to multiplayer, it could be what saves your day...

[Flubber]

Originally posted by waab
It is a Laz says, BUT do not use that in single player or you will destroy the game. The AI is crap when it comes to using crawlers so keep it down.

Agreed

Originally posted by waab


When it comes to multiplayer, it could be what saves your day...

Nah-- since everyone does it , it simply means (post crawlers) all key SPs get built the turn that their tech is discovered

[Aabraxan]

While we're on the topic of crawlers, let me ask this: How advisable are clean crawlers? I don't typically get clean reactors until long after I've run out of landmass to work (at least on my primary continent), but once I do, I use them to stockpile minerals without having to pay maintenance costs. Unlike energy, they (& their mineral value) also don't get wiped out by random events like the stock market crash (I think that's the event that keeps sapping my energy), or stolen by probe teams.

[Flubber]

Originally posted by Aabraxan
While we're on the topic of crawlers, let me ask this: How advisable are clean crawlers? I don't typically get clean reactors until long after I've run out of landmass to work (at least on my primary continent), but once I do, I use them to stockpile minerals without having to pay maintenance costs. Unlike energy, they (& their mineral value) also don't get wiped out by random events like the stock market crash (I think that's the event that keeps sapping my energy), or stolen by probe teams.

Huh???? crawlers, like probe teams are automatically clean-- Neither require mineral support ever so adding the ability is nonsensical. If you mean that you are building crawlers just to store minerals, I can see some point to that I guess but I always find there is more pressing things to do like build infrastructure or military


Oh and if you run out of land, make more!! I never run out of land. besides if you have been able to develop unimpeded that much, its time to go conquering someone

[Aabraxan]

Originally posted by Flubber
Huh???? crawlers, like probe teams are automatically clean-- Neither require mineral support ever so adding the ability is nonsensical. If you mean that you are building crawlers just to store minerals, I can see some point to that I guess but I always find there is more pressing things to do like build infrastructure or military

Well, I'm glad that I asked. I did't realize that probe teams and crawlers were automatically clean. Guess I'll cut that **** with the "double-clean crawlers" out . . .

As far as storing minerals, some bases just take too long to build military units with for my tastes, so I set them to building crawlers either to store minerals, or to use for building other infrastructure projects. (I realize that this may be a mistake, because I don't know what % of a crawler's minerals would get converted to, say, a recycling tank at a new base).

Oh and if you run out of land, make more!! I never run out of land. besides if you have been able to develop unimpeded that much, its time to go conquering someone

I do. Once I clear everyone off of "my continent," I develop that until I run out of land. Once I start raising land, though, I try to avoid building convenient bridges for my enemies, err, neighbors.

[Flubber]

Originally posted by Aabraxan



As far as storing minerals, some bases just take too long to build military units with for my tastes, so I set them to building crawlers either to store minerals, or to use for building other infrastructure projects. (I realize that this may be a mistake, because I don't know what % of a crawler's minerals would get converted to, say, a recycling tank at a new base).

This confuses me. You are developed to the point of running out of land but cannot produce military units quickly? Don't you have any bases pumping out 20-30 minerals a turn ?? Typically I want to have as many bases as I can that produce at least 10 so I can rush units more cheaply

The best use for clean is to put it on your formers or your base garrisons. Both have long long lives.

Overall I don't really understand your problem. I never run out of things I want and need to build. If you have enough formers and crawlers and infrastructure and nowhere to develop, its time to go kill somebody. Put all that excess capacity into military builds and kill your neighbors--- Your newly acquired bases will require lots of effort to bring up to snuff

[Aabraxan]

No, I can produce military units quickly. I have bases cranking out 20-30 mins per turn. If there's a problem, it may just be my patience. I don't like waiting for military units. I wasn't having a problem so much as just looking for a better way of doing things.

[Flubber]

Originally posted by Aabraxan
No, I can produce military units quickly. I have bases cranking out 20-30 mins per turn. If there's a problem, it may just be my patience. I don't like waiting for military units. I wasn't having a problem so much as just looking for a better way of doing things.

Fair enough-- Having minerals idling in crawlers that are not actually crawling anything does not seem too productive to me.

If you have bases producing 20-30 minerals, rush or upgrade with cash. You say that your units take too long-- are you building a lot of units with best weapon AND armour?

While there is a place for them from time to time, you may be better off with more numerous and cheaper units

[Commy]

Originally posted by Aabraxan
No, I can produce military units quickly. I have bases cranking out 20-30 mins per turn. If there's a problem, it may just be my patience. I don't like waiting for military units. I wasn't having a problem so much as just looking for a better way of doing things.

Is it because the cost of producing the military units is too high? If that is the case, you can choose to produce cheaper military units...

For example, instead of building 12-6-3 tanks, you could just build a 12-1-3 tank or build a 12-6-1 infantry...

Or, if you are just impatient with building military units, you could just mind control enemy cities...

[CEO Aaron]

If your only aim is to produce SPs as quickly as possible, you're far better off rush-building the crawlers than saving energy credits to upgrade them to high mineral value designs later. Why is this? Simple: Putting a crawler to work harvesting a 2 mineral tile (forest or mine, pre-resource uncapping) will defray the additional energy costs for rushing the crawler in the first place. In other words: Spend your credits on more crawlers, not fewer bigger crawlers. The only circumstances in which this would be untrue is if your bases are packed so tightly that there's nowhere left to crawl.

Aabraxan, I highly recommend you start building shell units and upgrading them with cash. There are a number of advantages to this strategy: First of all, you get units from your bases faster. This IS highly useful, as it lets your limited number of bases pump out more attrition units more quickly. Ultimately, no matter what your income or mineral output, one unit per base-turn is the fastest rate at which you can produce an army. This is one of the hidden advantages of having a larger number of bases. Second of all, focussing on energy income instead of mineral income bypasses the Eco-damage problem altogether. Third, energy is more readily multiplied by base facilities than minerals. Fourth, in the late reactor eras, the costs to upgrade units becomes highly efficient, when converting energy to minerals.

[Aabraxan]

It may be that (as Flubber put it) "having minerals idling in crawlers that are not actually crawling anything" isn't very productive. It may also be that a mineral stockpile is a luxury that I won't have when I get to transcend-level or multiplayer level.

I also find that I rarely have much extra cash lying around, at least when I play the Hive. Obviously, Morgan is a different story. So mind control is rarely an option. (I also suspect that my economic management leaves something to be desired).

I got this idea from a thread here that was on making clean shell units and then upgrading them. Commy started that thread, talking about making clean infantry units and then upgrading them to whatever infantry unit was needed, as appropriate. Kirov noted that infantry units have a specific purpose and there was some debate as to whether to use clean rovers, infantry, formers, etc. Well, that got me to thinking & I realized that if I could stockpile the minerals, I could essentially turn them into anything -- drop units, choppers, formers, base facilities, or SPs.

Like I said, this may not be useful at higher difficulty levels, but that's why I asked about it. I appreciate the feedback.

As far as the cost of units, it's not that I'm building costly units . . . anymore. Until recently, I was building best armor/best weapon units, often with more than one special ability. But I've seen the error of that.

But when I say I don't like to wait, I mean I really, really don't like to wait for military units. For example, I like to be able to build a needlejet in 2-3 turns at most. Same goes for infrastructure. If I've got the VW and a size 6 base is taking 20 turns to build a network node, I'll drive some crawlers over there, cash them in, & line up the next item for production. (I'm probably not the most patient guy you'll ever meet).

[Xian]

"If you've never used crawlers to hurry a SP before all you need to do is move them to the base building it and like an AA you'll be given the option of disbanding to hurry its production."
-Laz

Ive been playing for 8 years and this is the first Ive heard of this! In single player this sounds truly game breaking, since part of the fun is the race to build SPs and plan them out ahead of time. Getting an SP on the same turn as its tech is discovered sounds like a cheat or exploit even though it obviously isnt.

Then again, when playing on transcend I always use the "free-retool" bug. (for example having 3 copies of Merchant Exchange and changing them too VW, WP, or CN as the techs become available, or vice versa for other factions. This often results in SPs being built instantly so I guess its not that new.

This totally changes how I play, thx everyone.