Tech Tech Tech

[Kyttn]

Heya folks, quick question about teching

I'v been reading what little SMAC forums I could find pretty much since I started laying a while ago. A few friends and I brought the game and played on LAN for awhile, but they moved onto Civ4 (which I detest, personally ).

Being that I'v only seen myself and the 2 other people play, I didn't really see much variation in how people choose their technology.

I understand that it depends entirely on the game being played, but certain techs always seemed to stand out to me as being important ones to aim for high up.

For example, i always aimed to have a core set of tech's no matter the map, since i deemed them useful. Tier 2 defence, rovers, probe teams, foils if i'm coastal, and formers for example. Moving up in the tree, I generally aim for the same things, lifting the pesky nutrient ban first, and hab complexes.

I guess the tech you choose depends on alot of factors, leader, map size, opponents and whatnot, I was just intested to hear other people's take on the subject I guess you've prolly discussed this to death already, so apologies if i'm just dragging up old topics

Kyttn

edit: forgot to mention why I bring this up. Started a pbem game today ( thanks Hobbes and co. ), and the guy playing before me had picked tech I wouldn't have, albeit very few turns have been played, and it got me kinda worried

K

[Sikander]

Most players tend to beeline for Industrial Automation, the tech that gives you the supply crawler and the Wealth SE choice. Supply crawlers really can kick your production up, and Wealth is one of the best SE choices for a lot of factions. I suspect that the tech chosen by the former leader of your faction is one of the precursors to Industrial Automation.

[#endgame]

IA also gives Hab Complexes and the Planetary Transit System, making it a slightly insane tech to have.

[Leon Trotsky]

I'm just a newbie myself, but still...

My very first research is Centauri Ecology. Then I move on to Industrial Automation, if the choice is available I do the "Networks" (Discover) branch first (not much of an early marketeer despite I know it works wonders, I'd rather have +1 industry and Probe Teams, spare me). After that, Gene Splicing usually becomes my priority. Biogenetics yields immediate results (Recycling Tanks), and Democracy/Creches aren't that good until you have passed your craziest expansive phase, so I often pick the former first. My next techs often are Mobility and Flexibility, not only in the way to Air Power, but also great for pod popping. But I may just try to get Impact Rovers as quickly as I can... only CE first is written into stone in my book, followed close by IA. But from then on, it's just a big "it depends".

Meh, you could just ignore all that rant. I'm a bad player, and I'm sleepy.

[Kaosium]

I only play the AI, which is basically pretty incompetant, but I generally go for "Secrets of the Human Brain" when I start with the Peacekeepers. I know it's not as effective as the beeline for Industrial Automation, but I can't really see the point of getting it too soon in a single-player game. You're not going to be building supply crawlers until you get your initial expansion done anyway, and I like to get that done ASAP then pop-boom and my research at that point is so good due to the massive pop--and thus raw amounts of energy--it neutralizes the stiff incline that happens to tech at that point.

So I'll generally get Secrets first, then use the free tech on either Centauri Ecology if I havn't managed to trade for it by then, or a military tech like Doctrine Mobility or Applied Physics/Industrial base. I try to maintain a decent military even in the the early going so I'll usually go for Impact troops and then get the techs for Democratic/Planned and then pop boom to nine. Then I'll go for IA.

One advantage to Secrets early is you can get Trance troops which are free for your scouts and defenders. Thus I seldom lose my explorers to worms and I don't have to double-defend my bases to avoid losing my recycling tanks if the hapless tranceless defender is overcome.

I've never played a multiplayer game--basically because I hate ICS and I imagine that's the only way you can survive in that kind of game--but I'd think either getting IA ASAP or going straight for Impact Rovers (4-1-2)and Plasma Defensives (1-3-2) would be the best opening. By the time you have four Impact Rovers and two Plasma Defensives it should still be early enough you can roll over the guy building Supply Crawlers and The Planetary Transport System in short order, most likely two cities at a time.

[CEO Aaron]

My early tech beelines tend to vary widely depending on which faction I am playing. Morgan, my favorite, will pick up Biogenics first, then beeline for IA, picking up Centauri Ecology when the tree algorithm doesn't let me choose IA or its pre-requisites, which means I'll usually get it as my third or fourth tech.

For the others, it's almost invariably Centauri Ecology, followed by a rush to IA, but there are exceptions. With Yang or Sparta, I'll often skip the IA tree early if I'm on a shared landmass, instead picking up techs for Impact Rovers and Police State, and relying on some fast early conquest, extortion or both to make up the tech difference.

One advantage to Secrets early is you can get Trance troops which are free for your scouts and defenders. Thus I seldom lose my explorers to worms and I don't have to double-defend my bases to avoid losing my recycling tanks if the hapless tranceless defender is overcome.

While SotHB is a nice tech, trance is really only a good idea if you're a fan of early Free Market, since otherwise you get better combat odds and cash if you win by attacking worms rather than defending. Going the SotHB route is probably the best choice for Lal, because even at Transcend you'll be able to double the bureaucracy limit without having to rely on police or rec. commons to quell drones, which in turns means you can spend more time planting bases and put off crawler production without hurting yourself too bad. Also, Secrets is a prerequisite for Green, and the Empath Guild, Lal's ultimate SP.

[Aabraxan]

First, my disclaimer: I'm a newbie player and haven't memorized the tech tree yet. That leads to a great deal of flexibility in my tech choices (which might be better characterized as "blindly stumbling into tech choices").

So, for what it's worth:

I have been playing Yang. It's my understanding that Yang can't popboom. He does get +1 growth, though. He also gets +1 industry. So my early game consists of trying to build up food production to maximize that +1 growth & use that +1 industry to produce colony pods.

I usually begin with Biogenetics to get those Recycling Tanks. From there, I usually go Centauri Ecology. Build some formers and start farming. I also really, really like having the Weather Paradigm. This may be a tremendously bad move at Transcend level, and may be fatal in a MP game, but I'll frequently cash in formers to ensure that I get WP first, if it looks like anyone else starts it around the time that I do. Building thermal boreholes doesn't do me much good until I get mineral & energy restrictions lifted, but condensers do wonders for farming capability, even before gene splicing.

I'll get Social Psych next, just because it's a prerequisite to Ethical Calc. I'll eventually need Rec Commons, but not yet.

Then I'll usually move to Ethical Calc and on to Gene Splicing. Then I've got condensers & childrens' creches & have lifted the nutrient restriction. (Breed, people, breed!!!)

Here, things begin to depend more and more on my needs at the moment.

Sometimes I'll get Doctrines mobility and flex, depending on my start and my neighbors. I frequently pop Industrial Base, but if I don't, I'll work it in somewhere. Once I get Mobility, I'll start cranking out some speeders of some sort.

The other option here is Planetary Networks for Probe Teams and Planned economy. I won't get wealth until IA, but I usually start making SE changes about now.

Then it's on to Industrial Econ & Industrial Automation. Crank out some crawlers & rush the Planetary Transit System.

Most of my research is infrastructure-based, but I'll sidetrack occasionally for weapons and armor, or trade for them if I can. Once I get Police State/Planned/Wealth, I'm at +3 industry, +2 Police, and +3 growth. I may not be able to popboom, but I've got a good, strong pop growth rate and my bases can pump out a load of cheap rovers and swarm my first couple of neighbors.

Then it's usually as straight a line as I can make towards Air Power so that I can begin ruthlessly oppressing my neighbors.

As much as I'd like to have Secrets of the Human Brain, I've discovered that I'll almost never come up with it first playing the Hive. I'll trade for it down the road if I can, just so I don't have to waste time on it.

[Kaosium]

Originally posted by CEO Aaron
While SotHB is a nice tech, trance is really only a good idea if you're a fan of early Free Market, since otherwise you get better combat odds and cash if you win by attacking worms rather than defending. Going the SotHB route is probably the best choice for Lal, because even at Transcend you'll be able to double the bureaucracy limit without having to rely on police or rec. commons to quell drones, which in turns means you can spend more time planting bases and put off crawler production without hurting yourself too bad. Also, Secrets is a prerequisite for Green, and the Empath Guild, Lal's ultimate SP.

Trance is free for infantry defensive units. There's no point in not having it on your scouts, synth garrisons and plasma sentinals. Seriously, there's no extra charge for it and in the early going it's basically the only thing you could pick anyway.

I realize you're much better off attacking, but when you're popping pods that's often not an option, nor does it help when the mindworm comes from nowwhere two or three spaces away to attack your cities.

The instant I have Secrets I upgrade all my scouts to 'trance' and make the basic scout obsolete. It only costs 10 credits a piece to upgrade normal scouts to trance, which means all those early explorers aren't basically automatically killed if they pop mindworms out of a pod.

[Kyttn]

Mmm, I didn't really think much about the Trance ability, but from the looks of it it will be something to remember, i think.

Something that's been bugging me for a while.. When you aim for a specific technology higher up in the tree, you research maybe the first tech, then another, then suddenly, the computer decides it won't let you pick the next tech you need and you end up having to take something you didn't want. I guess this is just bad design on the behalf of the makers of SMAC?

thanks for your musings anyways

Kyttn

[Kaosium]

Mmm, I didn't really think much about the Trance ability, but from the looks of it it will be something to remember, i think.

Something that's been bugging me for a while.. When you aim for a specific technology higher up in the tree, you research maybe the first tech, then another, then suddenly, the computer decides it won't let you pick the next tech you need and you end up having to take something you didn't want. I guess this is just bad design on the behalf of the makers of SMAC?

thanks for your musings anyways

For some reason I can't reply normally, as it tells me either my account has been suspended or I'm not logged in. Then notes that I'm logged in, so either there's a bug somewhere or I have been kicked off this forum. I can't think of any reason why either, was my 'naughty' thread really all that obscene? I tried to be careful and keep it PG-13. Geez, they coulda just PM'd me and I'd abide by their posting guidelines.

Anyway, I found a way around it temporarily, so I'll answer your question. You'll note the default setting is for 'blind research;' so the designers didn't want you picking your techs all that much as probably it makes the game too easy. I often play with 'totally blind research' these days as it makes the game more of a challenge.

They put those points where you can't pick the tech you want in there to make beelining more difficult. Just like they did the same in Civ II. It's not a design flaw, it's intentional to make the game more of a challenge.

[Kaosium]

Oddly enough, it must have just been a temporary bug, as I can now click on the 'quote' post without getting that screen.

[CEO Aaron]

Originally posted by Kaosium

Trance is free for infantry defensive units. There's no point in not having it on your scouts, synth garrisons and plasma sentinals. Seriously, there's no extra charge for it and in the early going it's basically the only thing you could pick anyway.

I realize you're much better off attacking, but when you're popping pods that's often not an option, nor does it help when the mindworm comes from nowwhere two or three spaces away to attack your cities.

The instant I have Secrets I upgrade all my scouts to 'trance' and make the basic scout obsolete. It only costs 10 credits a piece to upgrade normal scouts to trance, which means all those early explorers aren't basically automatically killed if they pop mindworms out of a pod.

Well, there's free and then there's free. Yes, trance doesn't increase the mineral cost to produce garrison type units, but it still takes up a feature slot that could be used for other enhancements, including such favorites as police, clean, com jammer, AAA, etc. Yet I wasn't really debating the utility of trance so much as the wisdom of jumping off the vaunted Industrial Automation beeline to get it. To reiterate/summarize my comments, it's an okay choice for the PKs, but I wouldn't do it with any other faction.

Also, I don't think I'd spend credits upgrading units to trance, at least not until I had some other upgrades to go with it, such as an armor upgrade, or changing to clean reactors.

[Kaosium]

Being as 'Secrets' is usually the second tech for the PK, and you generally get it around 2110-2115, there simply isn't anything else you can use that slot for. 'Clean' comes much later, and if I recall correctly by that time you generally have Neural Grafting anyway and can can employ both those slots. I feel like an idiot when I lose a scout because of worms when I've forgotten to upgrade them to 'Trance' and usually when you do it it only costs you 40-60 credits, something you're likely to get anyway if just one of your scouts survives to pop more pods.

I'm surprised as a dedicated Morgan player you don't see the value in that 'independant' scout running an early FM and would want to improve his survival chances popping pods. Also, with the support penalty, you wouldn't want to be double-defending you bases in the beginning, and without Trance and with that brutal planet penalty, you probably lose defenders and recycling tanks you wouldn't have had to if you had trance defenders.

[Chaos Theory]

I find that my early pod poppers are usually popped Unity rovers, and they die when they pop 8 worms, one on each side. Trance won't save you from 8 worms.

Mind worms attack bases at a penalty before 2150, so anything at all but an unarmored probe team or artifact will likely win. After that, use formers for emergency defense if you're surprised.

[Kirov]

Originally posted by Kaosium
Being as 'Secrets' is usually the second tech for the PK, and you generally get it around 2110-2115, there simply isn't anything else you can use that slot for. 'Clean' comes much later, and if I recall correctly by that time you generally have Neural Grafting anyway and can can employ both those slots. I feel like an idiot when I lose a scout because of worms when I've forgotten to upgrade them to 'Trance' and usually when you do it it only costs you 40-60 credits, something you're likely to get anyway if just one of your scouts survives to pop more pods.

Trance is a very nice ability, and I don't think it eats up a slot, at least not in the early game - Police's of no use for early FMers, ECM is better replaced by a couple of scouting rovers, etc. However, Trance is simply not worth straying from the IA path. Almost nothing is. Because of the tech cost increase, you really can't afford putting off IA, unless maybe there's Sparta close to you.