Miriam and the Christian States of America

[Marid Audran]

Hello, citizens of Chiron.

Occasionally we take pleasure noting some advance in the arts and sciences that corresponds with the prescient futurist view of SMAC's world, life eventually catching up with its portentous fiction. It can happen in geopolitical circles too, apparently.

I was reading Salon.com today and came across an interesting disquisition on the rise of ultra right-wing Christian Nationalist groups and fringe activists in the U.S. The merits or demerits of the article notwithstanding, I couldn't help but think of it in SMAC terms; the seeding of the eventual revolution that would give us Psych Chaplain Miriam Godwinson, Ph.D. from Yale, cult figure in the Christian States of America (from the Firaxis bio).

Here's the article for the curious. The feedback comments from browsers on the site are equally interesting.

http://www.salon.com/books/feature/2006/05/12/goldberg/index.html

Anyway, her birth is still eight years away and this movement is still in its infancy. It's food for thought, though.

[Net Warrior]

I've learned thru bitter experience to never discuss religion or politics. Suffice it to say this is volatile and scary stuff. A perfect example of the reason why I've stopped attending to current events.

[Hydro]

Net Warrior - that is what ascendants extremist folks WANT you to do: tune out, and let them have their way. Apathy is not the answer, and ignoring potentially ugly issues will not make them go away.

MA – the objectives of the extreme religious right are becoming clear: subversion of science so that it aligns to their ideological beliefs (and if the scientific method needs to be junked in the process then so be it), a lock on political power to advance their social agenda (which is strongly related to the previous point), and a clear allegiance to one political party. The ‘big tent’ espoused by this movement is indeed open to all – but those that enter that don’t profess every tenant of these (typically evangelical) sects are given fringe-defined crosses upon entry and are invited to shut up while sitting in the back of the tent.

This does sound like SMAC’s Christian States of America, which seemed to be at war with itself and many other entities in SMAC's apocalyptic future. I imagine many ‘loving’ but stern, intolerant and sour Miriams in America’s near future, and we don't need to look very hard to seem some right now.

Hydro

[Chaos Theory]

Here's a more positive take - without science, they're doomed. Imagine trying to develop medicine while holding to creationism, or developing AIs while fretting about their souls. Such movements need to import their technology, and so will be forever behind. Consider Iran - if they have a nuke within a year, they'll still be over 60 years behind, and only dangerous because we still have no defense against them.

[Senethro]

I suspect that in such a society utility would still trump dogma for the elite. If priests had to be politicians as well, they would inevitably be tarred by the extra role. And there would probably be a lovely supply of non-humans for testing on (read: heretics).
Would the layman in the street know? No, because one truth through societies is that the elite make the rules but don't have to abide by them.

[Hydro]

CT – you may be right. But I live in the US and would rather not be subject to the selective and arbitrary whims of a self-appointed/elected theocracy. Moreover, such societies do fall behind economically and technologically (these two are closely linked, of course), and it is the rank-and-file citizenry that always pay the price. Since I am such a citizen I will take that rather personally, and will protest both their apparent irrationality and malign intent.

S – perhaps. However, most of the fundamentalists I am semi or very familiar with do not compromise and pillory those that do. The politicians they support will be expected to do the same, and utility may very well be a casualty to the purity of their dogma. There is also the specter of self-delusion (which is popular among those with a strong ideology of any sort) and rose-colored glasses coloring one’s perception. These maladies have happened may times in the past, and there is no reason why it can’t happen (again) in the USA.

I agree that the average tuned-out layman may not know or understand what is going on, or may buy into to the sweet siren of the fundamentalist’s religiosity (which encourages either no or choreographed thinking). Some will be paying attention, though, so the truth (note – not capital-T ‘Truth’, but little-t ‘truth’) will be available even if most care not to listen.

Let us hope that the Christian States of America never comes to pass and that Brian Reynolds’s apocalyptic future is false. But, sadly, science fiction authors can be the prophets of our time, and he could be right.

Hydro

[Sikander]

Meh, I'm not worried. The grand coalition Rove has wrought is on its last legs, which means that the seeming power of the religious right is about to undergo a correction. They were never nearly as powerful as they seemed, in part because their agenda is largely unconstitutional, and in part because their crap isn't all that popular generally and they've been easy to manipulate for little cost by politicians.

[Arcite]

Originally posted by Sikander
Meh, I'm not worried. The grand coalition Rove has wrought is on its last legs, which means that the seeming power of the religious right is about to undergo a correction. They were never nearly as powerful as they seemed, in part because their agenda is largely unconstitutional, and in part because their crap isn't all that popular generally and they've been easy to manipulate for little cost by politicians.

Interesting discussion

And I agree with you I think... the whole right-wing pax america thing appears to be an utter failure at this point. Even if the US fires off some missles at Iran in the next year or two, it won't change much. The correction that you guys are hoping for looks like it will come in the form of rising oil costs, decrease in value of the dollor, and continued issues of immegration.

Makes ya wonder, if the preassure of expensive oil and threat of international terrorism keeps up, the US might turn into a more technological police state (ex, monitoring phone calls of every citizen, video monitoring, biometrics).... Yang anyone???

[Kataphraktoi]

The conversation just got alot more interesting...

Originally posted by Chaos Theory
Here's a more positive take - without science, they're doomed. Imagine trying to develop medicine while holding to creationism, or developing AIs while fretting about their souls. Such movements need to import their technology, and so will be forever behind.

Conviently forgetting all the christian scientists like isaac newton etc

Technology isnt and cant be unethical anymore than a table can be 'evil' or 'good'. Anyone that says otherwise needs to read their bible some more.

The US will turn into a state that oppresses religion and freedom of speech - a totalitarian regime. Already alot of stuff has been layed as the groundwork for this, for example chicago is now covered with camera's and criminals can be arrested within minutes of doing a crime along with a slow but sure reduction in rights...for example, US citizens held by the CIA overseas illegally(and tourtured?) and lets not forgot the NSA along with a militarised and sometimes-brutal police force. And all 15 spy agency's commands are now occupied by the military-people trained to say 'yes sir'.

Not to mention an out of control Supreme Court which makes the real laws now :/

[Hydro]

As the Americans learned so painfully in Earth's final century, free flow of information is the only safeguard against tyranny. The once-chained people whose leaders at last lose their grip on information flow will soon burst with freedom and vitality, but the free nation gradually constricting its grip on public discourse has begun its rapid slide into despotism. Beware of he who would deny you access to information, for in his heart he dreams himself your master.

-- Commissioner Pravin Lal,
"U.N. Declaration of Rights"

*~*~*~*

More prescience by our good Brian Reynolds?

The Religious Right may be a minority even among the evangelical/born again portion of the religious majority in the USA, but they are very vocal and committed. The (former) Supreme Court Chief Justice in Mississippi put a large boulder with the Ten Commandments on it on public land. Both he and boulder were eventually removed. But now that former justice is a martyr and that boulder is traveling the country and drawing thousands (lemons to lemonade anyone?). Dover School District in Pennsylvania tried to get Intelligent Design taught as science. They failed (and were soundly ‘thwacked’ by a Republic-appointed judge), but other cases are springing up all over the USA. In a good minority of states (including the state of Illinois where I live) the ‘theory’ of evolution is optional for judging minimal competence of high-school graduates. Imagine that? One of the tenants of modern biology and a linchpin of geology is ‘optional’? My high school biology teacher was afraid to even mention evolution for fear of losing his job, and he only discussed the topic outside of normal class hours with select students that he felt he could trust (which luckily included me) – and this was in a university town at a very good high school in Iowa. In most other developed and developing countries the very idea of evolution being ‘optional’ for scientific literacy would be considered irrational.

I am not sanguine that the Religious Right will take its recent setbacks and go home. They view this as a fight against Good and Evil, and won’t give up just because Evil wins a skirmish or two. As for our rights and the Constitution, we are only a few federal Supreme Court justices away from a potential shaking up, so hold on.

Consider reading the book MA cited: Kingdom Coming – the Rise of Christian Nationalism. The author hyperventilates here and there but mostly rings true (in my opinion). Also consider the Republican War on Science – which is perhaps more chilling (although you’ll have to allow for that author’s obvious partisanship).

K – there is Evil Science to the Religious Right, and that is any science that undermines their literalist interpretation of the Bible. The list of Evil Science is rather large (evolution; some biology, and especially stem cell research; some nuclear physics, since radiometric dating has the audacity to imply the Earth is more than 10k years old), and the list is likely to get even longer.

In the end it will even out, of course, but if the Religious Right has its way then those in the US will be poorer in monetary terms and with respect to the freedoms they’ve taken for granted. And that is a sad.

OK. Now I’ll stop hyperventilating and get off my soapbox.

Hydro

[Chaos Theory]

Originally posted by Kataphraktoi
Conviently forgetting all the christian scientists like isaac newton etc

Think Galileo Galilei instead.

Technology isnt and cant be unethical anymore than a table can be 'evil' or 'good'. Anyone that says otherwise needs to read their bible some more.

You don't need to tell us.

[q=Hydro]
Dover School District in Pennsylvania tried to get Intelligent Design taught as science. They failed (and were soundly ‘thwacked’ by a Republic-appointed judge)...
[/q]

And then thwacked again by the constituents. This wasn't just judicial activism.

[Sikander]

Originally posted by Arcite


Interesting discussion

And I agree with you I think... the whole right-wing pax america thing appears to be an utter failure at this point. Even if the US fires off some missles at Iran in the next year or two, it won't change much. The correction that you guys are hoping for looks like it will come in the form of rising oil costs, decrease in value of the dollor, and continued issues of immegration.

Makes ya wonder, if the preassure of expensive oil and threat of international terrorism keeps up, the US might turn into a more technological police state (ex, monitoring phone calls of every citizen, video monitoring, biometrics).... Yang anyone???

You miss my point, which is that the religious right wing (in the United States) has always been overestimated as to their power. I remember people running scared over the "Moral Majority" in the early 1980s. Typically the same sort of chicken littles who were part of the freeze movement btw, which tried but failed to lose the Cold War. Well, since then we've had a lot of Republican government. Abortion is still legal, as is burning the flag in protest etc. Every time the religious right seem to be getting some traction they get some press coverage and immediately there is a backlash. Despite their best efforts to thwart it (for instance), the Gay Rights movement in the U.S. seems to be gaining steam, and I'd bet real money that they'll continue to best the religious right despite the fact that they are an even smaller minority. The problem for the religious right is that the more outsiders see of them, the less they like them.

You seem to be conflating neo-conservatism foreign policy with the religious right for some reason, even though neo-conservatism is more influenced by judaism than christianity to the extent that it has any religious connotations at all. And I see little connection between the recent fall of the dollar, illegal immigration and Iran, except that people who dislike the U.S. might roll them all into a single schadenfreude burrito.

I see little chance that the U.S. will amount to more than a pimple on the ass of China with respect to being a heartless police state, and China aint got nothing on the Hive.

[Kataphraktoi]

n a good minority of states (including the state of Illinois where I live) the ‘theory’ of evolution is optional for judging minimal competence of high-school graduates. Imagine that? One of the tenants of modern biology and a linchpin of geology is ‘optional’? My high school biology teacher was afraid to even mention evolution for fear of losing his job, and he only discussed the topic outside of normal class hours with select students that he felt he could trust (which luckily included me) – and this was in a university town at a very good high school in Iowa. In most other developed and developing countries the very idea of evolution being ‘optional’ for scientific literacy would be considered irrational.

I see that sentiment alot out of pro-evolution fanatics. Strange that you accuse christians of being narrowminded idiots when your own beliefs are un-debatable absolutes-contrary to what you claim to believe in(science,which is about the truth and not what you want to see)). You also use absolutes and put down anything that could endanger the big bang theory-as if the truth could not stand on its own accord. And referring to losing jobs...i would be scared to mention god in a school for fear of losing my job as well.

radiometric dating

A very unsound dating technique whose results are easily manipulated. Basicly, you guess at how much the item your measuring started with(the isotopes) and decide how much time has passed based on rate of decay. If evolution needs millions of years-let it be enough starting materiel to be millions of years! Its a great way to measure time, for getting results you can agree with. Of course, pro-evolution books do not mention this. Heck even the nasa site agrees with that.

Although the Big Bang Theory is widely accepted, it probably will never be proved; consequentially, leaving a number of tough, unanswered questions.

Besides all that, evolutionists still cannot come up with a plausible big bang theory that actually explains the very begining.

There are also some great problems with the "singularity" of the big bang. What happened before the big bang?? The big bang theorists can't answer this question and just say it's a meaningless question. (They like to say it's like asking "What's north of the North Pole?" - Actually it's not like asking that at all. North is a direction; time is a measure of change. If there was no change before the big bang, then how could it have started?)

A few minutes with a book or google can poke so many holes in the big bang theory i wonder how you could still believe it, and esspecialy in this information age. Im always astonished over again at this fact...

(of course, google is rightwing controlled and deliberatly links to many anti-evolution sites! yeah, thats it! )

[Senethro]

Kata, just edit out that post before you embarress yourself. You're worse than BinT and his fake AIDS conspiracy.

[Chaos Theory]

Originally posted by Kataphraktoi
...

Besides all that, evolutionists still cannot come up with a plausible big bang theory that actually explains the very begining.

A few minutes with a book or google can poke so many holes in the big bang theory i wonder how you could still believe it, and esspecialy in this information age. Im always astonished over again at this fact...

...

POT! KETTLE! BLACK!

I think I've said all I have to say in this thread.