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Thoughts on AC Enviromental Modelling and Gameplay

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  • Thoughts on AC Enviromental Modelling and Gameplay

    Of all AC gameplay elements the most difficult to re-concile by far is its enviromental model. Now the whole concept of fungus and worms is not the problem of course. The biggest, one might say the only thing in AC that never has quite rung 'true' is of course...

    Global warming.

    Now the entire MW\fungus cycle concept was very well implemented into the game yet it was felt another wild(ok very wild) card was needed. Massive changes to land and coastal areas in AC are to put it charitably, severe. In fact imo, far beyond what is either necessary or even logical given the rest of the games very high level of design. There are two problems here, one is the physcial problems and challenges it presents, the other is the diplomatic side of things.

    Diplomancy and the art of Planet Wrecking

    Obvously firaxis thought that being able to modifly the planet thro wrecklessness or by design was an important concept, so much so it is one of the few top level council options offered. Now the 1st thing that comes to my mind is the diplomatic Global warming option. I myself, have never voted for this, always against it and I never stop asking myself one question. Why would any intelligent, sentient being ever volunatarily vote to increase an already habitable worlds temperature, thereby insureing massive damage to coastlines, possible loss of cities and towns, changes in agriculture, destruction to transport lines and so on?. Moreover if one leader was pushing this awesome scenario, what possbile motivation would other leaders have for going along with it? Of course, I used to think no leader would ever actually .....vote for global warming in this universe, at least until George W Bush came along . Once planets inhabitants are given there marching orders to SUC (sport utility crawler) planet to death, it can be undone with something called
    'Solar Shade'

    A nice pair o shades for Planet

    Launch solar Shade, never understood the concept that went into this one, the mechanisms FOR global warming are easy to understand and reasoably well implemented, the method by which its undone....somewhat less so. Fly a bunch of tin foil into orbit and watch the water vaporize...or freeze....or.....even more plausibly, vanish into thin air. . Solar Shade if you think about it....really is a pretty weak concept to deal with a somewhat lopsided global warming implentation. S.S. cant really be logically or scientifiically reconciled without invokeing 'magic or suspension of disbelief (ie its only a game so ignore it). One way one could rationalize it as a massive program of flood control levees etc, but really, if thats what it is-why call it solar shade?

    Its my faction and Ill fry if I want too

    Now another side effect of GW on the diplomatic side is how the AI factions deal with the issue and just like in the real world, your neibors business is often your business too. The AI factions of course do pollute and while you can control your OWN industry and usually stabilize your own heat output wo a lot of effort, the AI of course is under no such restriction. They can and do pollute, a lot. Now aside from the weak and frustrateing solar shade, you really cant do a hell of a lot about it. Theres no diplomatic option to force or ask Factions to tone down the pollution, your really only given the (poor choice of SS) or go to war and conquer the worst offenders just to shut them down. Hardly good options and if your on unmodded alpha.txt settings by the time you DO take them out the damage is already long done. The way the game plays out shade does not have the actuall effect of 'fixing' other factions pollution issues. It could best be described as the wrong solution for the wrong problem.


    Global Warming as an effect

    Now the way global warming is handled is imo, is very excessive. No civilization could handle sea level drops of 333 meters (and rises! ) of these magnitudes. For the americans with there limted grasp of science, a 66-333meter sea rise would submerge every major city on the west and east coasts of north america It would effectively end technological civiilzation on Earth or any world for that matter, no matter how advanced you are. In short the effects of such outrageous sea level rises and falls are not well done in AC at all, I would say its the only glareing fault in an otherwise exceptional game. The effects of over-pollution or warmng could have been implemented with a sort of 'social penaly' ie, % of budget eaten up by indirect costs. IOW an effiicency penalty related solely to how 'dirty' your faction is. Alternately, a form of square pollution , much like the orginal Sim city did. Of course in AC planet responds to pollution with fungal growth. I find the game is pretty easy(generally) on industrial pollution yet goes absolutlely haywire with the sea level. There is of couse-no specific 'pollution effect' beyond fungus on squares but it would have been a much better concept that haveing the sea yoyo +- 500 meters.

    Planet Busters are the bomb...

    The first time a AC'er sees there 1st PB go off-its pretty impressive -massive physical damage, instant lakefront property and of course, nice little GW effect that adds up quickly. Helps moderate there useage a great deal but PB 's,like most weapons of mass bombage in these types of games tend to understate there long term effects. It seems to be assumed that PB generate a lot of residual heat but no real raditaion or long term damage in there imediate area. Are they 'clean' weapons or not? It seems unlikely city busting weapons could ever bee truly 'clean'. If they are not then there should have been a special damage again to the squares effected in addition to the physical effects. Say a square that takes many decades to 'clean'. As it is, the PB simply cranks up GW leading to more of the exaggerted effects on the sea levels

    A fix for all your global warming woes.

    Haveing said all that it is possble to make the game actually keep(more or less) the same coastlines you started your map with. By modiflying the world builder you can pretty much stop the over excessive effects of sea level rises to something much more realistic. Of all the mods that can be made to alpha.txt, this single one has made a massive improvement to how the game feels and plays out-at least as far as enviroment goes. The coastlines remain (fairly) stable, yet and this is the good part. The envrometal effects of warming and pollution STILL are in effect. Squares change-lakes can form inland-coastal hexes can be submerged-PB' still effect planets temp and so on. The effects are just much more restrained tho and still require attention and resources to deal with. IOW it makes Planet feel a lot more like well.....a planet. . I only recently found this mod and I strongly recomend it to anyone that finds global warming to be tad un-realistic.


    99999, ; Global Warming (Latitude DIVISOR for global warming) Smaller # increases effect of warming
    0, ; Sea Level Rises (Magnitude of sea level changes from ice cap melting/freezing)*

    *Would like to thank the user that pointed out this mod(cant recall name sorry)

  • #2
    Strategic solution to global warming:

    Take to the seas!!

    Ensure that all your bases have pressure domes, and build sea formers and crawlers.

    The AI seems quite happy to lose unprotected coastal bases as the sea levels rise.

    It's easier to deal with than the effects of global warming in Civ 2.

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: Thoughts on AC Enviromental Modelling and Gameplay

      Originally posted by Travelerstein

      Of course, I used to think no leader would ever actually .....vote for global warming in this universe, at least until George W Bush came along
      "Reports giving by the EPA and several activist groups have shown increasing amounts of green house gases given off by American industries. These gases could lead to increasing sea levels, effectively flooding the Eastern and Western coasts, as well as several areas around the Great Lakes. The White House has repeatedly ignored these reports, and Republican held Congress has failed to propose any solutions to this problem..."

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: Re: Thoughts on AC Enviromental Modelling and Gameplay

        Originally posted by Commy
        ZOMFG it's a conspiracy.


        Re Travelerstein's article, while removing sea level rises by itself might be good, I fear this might unbalance the game if regular fungal blooms aren't made more dangerous or frequent. At least for me personally a worm now and then isn't a deterrent to stop polluting - hell, they give me extra money! Possible sea level raises is a succesful deterrent for me to build eg the otherwise rather useful centauri preserves though.
        Contraria sunt Complementa. -- Niels Bohr
        Mods: SMAniaC (SMAC) & Planetfall (Civ4)

        Comment


        • #5
          True, worms arent really that big of a deterant, thats why if it were possible to mod AC, id put in pollution effects on tiles in addition to fungus, but as I mention, exess heat and pollution effects are *not* removed by this mod and the sea can still rise and fall and the gw and ss diplomatic options still are in effect..........only this makes them more realistic. Many of my inland cities squares are still effected by rampant hive pollution and it still requires time and effort to repair the damage. IOW its not a 'pollute all you want for free card' Im pretty sure fungus varibable could be tweaked in alpha.txt, but one would have to be careful or you might end up with a You- vs-the-fungus of Chiron scernario which would be even more annoying that the massive up and down contient game.

          The other problem is when fungus takes over a square its not exactly a penalty either, the squares still produce resources so its pretty easy to ignore fungus around your bases especically when your off 100 tiles away beating the hive or the Lal into the next century. Game would have benifited from more varied council options(ie ones that dont involves moveing the coastlines constantly), slightly reworked enviroment model.

          Comment


          • #6
            Can you edit alphax.txt and give the natives trance/empath? That'd make them a bit more fearsome.
            #play s.-cd#g+c-ga#+dgfg#+cf----q.c
            #endgame

            Quantum P. is a champion: http://geocities.com/zztexpert/docs/upoprgv4.html

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: Thoughts on AC Enviromental Modelling and Gameplay

              Originally posted by Travelerstein
              ...comes to my mind is the diplomatic Global warming option. I myself, have never voted for this, always against it and I never stop asking myself one question. Why would any intelligent, sentient being ever volunatarily vote to increase an already habitable worlds temperature, thereby insureing massive damage to coastlines, possible loss of cities and towns, changes in agriculture, destruction to transport lines and so on?
              Perhaps it would be the recourse of an insane, sociopathic despot (or role-playing of one) who would rather drown his rivals into oblivion, even at his own expense. Also, I could see a water-based faction (i.e. the Nautilus Pirates) opting for this, or one on unnaturally high land, perhaps one long continental plateau.

              Now the way global warming is handled is imo, is very excessive. No civilization could handle sea level drops of 333 meters (and rises! ) of these magnitudes. For the americans with there limted grasp of science, a 66-333meter sea rise would submerge every major city on the west and east coasts of north america It would effectively end technological civiilzation on Earth or any world for that matter, no matter how advanced you are. In short the effects of such outrageous sea level rises and falls are not well done in AC at all, I would say its the only glareing fault in an otherwise exceptional game.
              Your cheap shot aside, the fact that global warming consequences are so exreme is indeed a check and balance system for rabid industrialization and unchecked "dirty" mineral production, since pollution under the old Civ system has been abolished. SMAC players are very wary about producing excessive eco-damage because of precisely this. If the most GW effect at one time that could be produced would be, say, 50 meters, it would serve less of a deterrant. I know I'm also more afraid of massive mind worm rape than polluting a couple of "tiles" like past Civ games, to play "whack-the-mole" clean-up with engineers or workers.

              . It seems to be assumed that PB generate a lot of residual heat but no real raditaion or long term damage in there imediate area. Are they 'clean' weapons or not? It seems unlikely city busting weapons could ever bee truly 'clean'. If they are not then there should have been a special damage again to the squares effected in addition to the physical effects. Say a square that takes many decades to 'clean'. As it is, the PB simply cranks up GW leading to more of the exaggerted effects on the sea levels
              The other effect, remember, is a huge crater (based on reactor strength) in the ground, which the Planet sea rises up to fill.

              A fix for all your global warming woes.
              Modding is always encouraged around here, though personally I feel the game is pretty balanced in environmental regards so I'll pass on this. You should have seen pre-patched versions of SMAC back in the day...now THAT was out-of-control global warming.
              "I wake. I work. I sleep. I die. The dark of space my only sky. My life is passed, and all I've been will never touch the earth again." --The Ballad of Sky Farm 3, Anonymous, Datalinks

              Comment


              • #8
                Yeah, I am sure that the Pirates would LOVE if Chiron got on-a-out-of-control Global Warming. I mean, they live at the sea, and the other factions don't. So, if they're Smart, they can trie to sink all lands.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: Thoughts on AC Enviromental Modelling and Gameplay

                  Originally posted by Travelerstein
                  For the americans with there limted grasp of science
                  I advise you to refrain from cheap shots in future.
                  SMAC/X FAQ | Chiron Archives
                  The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man. --G.B.Shaw

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    And for God's sake if you are going to take cheap shots be sure and check your grammar.
                    He's got the Midas touch.
                    But he touched it too much!
                    Hey Goldmember, Hey Goldmember!

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by #endgame
                      Can you edit alphax.txt and give the natives trance/empath? That'd make them a bit more fearsome.
                      Yes, but it would of course also make bred natives more powerful.
                      Contraria sunt Complementa. -- Niels Bohr
                      Mods: SMAniaC (SMAC) & Planetfall (Civ4)

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Who breeds their own NL? Anyone who'd really benefit would do better going for a stroll in the fungus and catching their own, wouldn't they?
                        #play s.-cd#g+c-ga#+dgfg#+cf----q.c
                        #endgame

                        Quantum P. is a champion: http://geocities.com/zztexpert/docs/upoprgv4.html

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          True. I was thinking of SMAniaC where it is good for some to breed native life.
                          Contraria sunt Complementa. -- Niels Bohr
                          Mods: SMAniaC (SMAC) & Planetfall (Civ4)

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            hmmm my big complaint about searaises is that you are unable to "hold" the elevation of a tile with a dike or something. Lots of times, with a lot of formers around, my choice is between losing land improvements to the sea or raising land and destroying nice sea improvements.

                            I see a couple of game mechanisms here that could work. One would be a dike that could maintain a tile as land even if the elevation went below zero. The second would be to allow you to chose how much to raise land. For instance I might decide to raise a bunch of tiles to 900m since I know the lastest sea rise was 500 m.
                            You don't get to 300 losses without being a pretty exceptional goaltender.-- Ben Kenobi speaking of Roberto Luongo

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                            • #15
                              Native Life are underpowered, whether wild, captured or bred. Making them stronger is good.

                              In the patched game, there's a low limit on the number of worms that can be captured, to prevent Gaian "worm rush". That was occasionally effective on small maps, but in my experience it was over-rated, and Firaxis's response overcompensated.

                              Currently, worms take more minerals to make than similar morale level conventional units, which is one reason bred worms are rare.

                              In Crossfire, conventional units can have strong psi defences that make worms even weaker, spoiling much of the backstory: i can't see the Gaians taking Sparta Command with worms now.

                              Frankly, i'd like unlimited numbers of worms to be easier for high-Planet-value factions to capture, and cheaper (especially for them) to breed.
                              ftp://ftp.sff.net/pub/people/zoetrope/MOO2/
                              Zoe Trope

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