Trained scout patrols

[Leon Trotsky]

In Maniac's article (thanks for that one, comrade), he points out that:

Originally posted by Maniac
a) When a unit built with the high morale special ability is upgraded to another design without that ability, the morale bonus still stays.

I'm a bit lazy, and there's always the possibility that somebody else already has done the research one is to begin (especially when having this marvelous site up for years). So the question I have for you is: would it be cost-effective to build fission trained infantry (1-1-1) only to upgrade them into your regular garrison as soon as they leave the barracks?

Sorry for opening another thread, but I thought that this didn't belong to Maniac's aritcle discussion.

[Leon Trotsky]

Re: Trained scout patrols

Double post. Activity recorded mission year 2006. Post id 4218793. Termination of specimen advised.

[Lazerus]

I think most people recommend doing this for units.

[Maniac]

Re: Trained scout patrols

Originally posted by Leon Trotsky
So the question I have for you is: would it be cost-effective to build fission trained infantry (1-1-1) only to upgrade them into your regular garrison as soon as they leave the barracks

That's indeed a tactic often mentioned, and one that is included in the Treatise on Hurrying which will be published in the Column over the next two weeks (Stay tuned! )

Personally though I never use this tactic, so I'm probably not the best person to talk about this, but I don't really see this tactic as cost-effective. If you're swimming in energy credits (eg you're playing Morgan) and you're in an emergency situation where you need units RIGHT NOW and not in a couple turns, this is probably your only option. But if you don't have a time pressure, I'd personally recommend to just build your units the normal way with minerals. I did a few calculations for the Spartan ACDG faction, and even though they have a low Industry SE (meaning unit upgrading should be relatively more lucrative for them than for other factions) IIRC I found few or no examples where upgrading of 'unit shells' as they are called was cost-effective. Cost-effective I define as getting one mineral for paying two credits or less.

As said though, I'm probably not the best person to speak about this, so I'd love to hear from other people how often and in which situations they use unit upgrading.

[Verrucosus]

Upgrading "shell units" is recommended in Vel's SMAC guide. When he posted the 3rd version on this forum, I saved it as a Word-document in order to make annotations and notes relating to my own playing style. During that process I considered the cost-effectiveness of upgrading vs rush-buying. After gathering some anecdotal evidence I rewrote the relevant section for personal use adding a paragraph about the cost-effectiveness. This is the relevant passage:

"... The goal here is to avoid having to actually build these high powered units. Far and away a better choice is to build an inexpensive unit and use cash to upgrade it to something more the following turn. (To that end, it is important to note that a scout equipped with trance or police abilities costs you exactly the same amount as a “regular” scout, and is much more useful against either mindworms or drones. For rover units, either laser weapons or synthmethal armour are the same price as none at all.)

While Builders and Hybrids tend to have more cash than Momentum Players, they may be worried that spending it on upgrades may compromise their rush-building efforts. Depending on how urgently they need the unit, that concern may be well founded or not. Consider the following example: A 4-3-1 impact infantry normally costs 40 minerals to build. By building a scout patrol for 10 minerals and upgrading it for 90 energy credits (upgrade cost = (weapon increase + armour increase + number of mineral rows for new configuration) * 10 energy credits) you save 30 minerals for the next facility on your list. While it is true that hurrying production of the facility itself by 30 minerals would cost you only 60 credits, keep in mind that you get the unit you need a number of turns sooner and that may be an advantage worth paying the difference of 30 energy credits. Also, if you can afford to delay upgrading the unit, you have, in effect, granted yourself a rush-building loan of 60 energy credits to be paid back at 50 % interest when you finally upgrade the unit. Depending on the time interval, that may be an excellent deal. If you’re going to do it that way, you’ll want to keep your relatively defenseless scouts in protected areas of your empire so some hotshot chopper pilot doesn’t come along and toast a dozen of your cheaply built troops before you get the chance to upgrade them.

After Fusion Power becomes available, rush-building the desired unit can become cheaper than ugrading a shell unit. For example, a fission-based chaos infantry unit (8-3-1) costs 50 minerals to build, 140 energy credits to upgrade to from a scout patrol and 160 credits to rush-build after an initial investment of 10 minerals (hurry cost for units = number of remaining minerals * (2 + number of remaining minerals / 20). By contrast, a fusion-based chaos infantry unit (8-3-1*2) costs only 40 minerals to build, 130 credits to upgrade to from a scout patrol and 105 credits to rush-build after an investment of 10 minerals. Of course, building and upgrading shell units still is the more flexible approach, because it allows you to delay the upgrade until you actually need the unit. Assuming that by that time, in our example, you have fusion lasers at your disposal, upgrading your scout patrol to a 10-3-1*2 fusion infantry unit costs 150 credits, but upgrading your rush-built chaos infantry costs 60 credits on top of the 105 credits spent on rush-building. The bottom line is that unless you know that you need the unit immediately, upgrading shell units is the more efficient approach even when fusion reactors are available.

Upgrading is unreasonably expensive when the configuration you want includes components you haven’t prototyped yet. In that case, you should add the new component to a shell unit and build the prototype conventionally. Here, the trusty supply crawler is your best friend. When the prototyping base starts work on the new weapon or defensive system, have a crawler standing by from a nearby base to be “cashed in” at full mineral value to speed the completion of the prototype. That way, you can begin upgrading your forces the very next turn. Doing the prototype on a rover chassis will give you a well-trained, mobile attacker/defender when you equip it with your best armour and weapon."

The preceding text was inspired by and is strongly based on Vel's How-to-Notes in the sections "Ground Pounders 'n Garrisons" and "Naval Power in the Early Game" of version 3 of his SMAX guide as posted on this forum. The original note can be found without any substantial alterations on p. 113 and p. 120 of the guide's printed version (v. 4.0). The examples given are based on anecdotal evidence only. I always wanted to do more testing on this, but somehow didn't get around to do it because of ... er ... my laziness. Maybe someone else has already taken a closer look by now. In any event, I'd be very interested in Leon's findings.

[Verrucosus]

Regarding Maniac's comment about the Spartans: If I remember correctly, the unit upgrade costs are based on mineral rows and should be unaffected by the industry rating. (If it's different, that would be one example of my notes being wrong as a result of insufficient testing.)

[Kataphraktoi]

Re: Re: Trained scout patrols

Originally posted by Maniac


That's indeed a tactic often mentioned, and one that is included in the Treatise on Hurrying which will be published in the Column over the next two weeks (Stay tuned! )

Personally though I never use this tactic, so I'm probably not the best person to talk about this, but I don't really see this tactic as cost-effective. If you're swimming in energy credits (eg you're playing Morgan) and you're in an emergency situation where you need units RIGHT NOW and not in a couple turns, this is probably your only option. But if you don't have a time pressure, I'd personally recommend to just build your units the normal way with minerals. I did a few calculations for the Spartan ACDG faction, and even though they have a low Industry SE (meaning unit upgrading should be relatively more lucrative for them than for other factions) IIRC I found few or no examples where upgrading of 'unit shells' as they are called was cost-effective. Cost-effective I define as getting one mineral for paying two credits or less.

As said though, I'm probably not the best person to speak about this, so I'd love to hear from other people how often and in which situations they use unit upgrading.

I use upgrading all the time, for launching invasions that need to happan yesterday. Even for a prepared attack that im not attempting to rush(and therefore give less warning) i will usualy upgrade.exeptions would be high undustry factions, i just build the units straight in that case. Later in the game i find drophovertanks to be a hot item to mass-upgrade, but of course without the trained ability. if possible, i will build the units normally though. it has to be quick though

I define cost effective as being able to take,destroy, or otherwise incapacitate enemy bases or his econ. No price is too pricey if that can be accomplished. Extreme example: people getting hit by a finisher-attack (drop\cruisertransports) who then wait to switch production so they dont lose the accumulated minerals on buildings and wind up losing. they didnt lose those minerals but they lost the war, so i really wouldnt care if im paying 4EC\Min...if it helps me win. the costs are not that high, but you get the idea. time is of the essence!

f you're swimming in energy credits (eg you're playing Morgan) and you're in an emergency situation where you need units RIGHT NOW and not in a couple turns, this is probably your only option. But if you don't have a time pressure, I'd personally recommend to just build your units the normal way with minerals.

Im pretty sure in BE2(only example game thats latestage i have) that i am making more units\turn with shells+upgrading than normal constructing. my best bases(no boreholes though,from Gwarming damage) could take 2-3 turns to make my average 20-1-3*4. alternativly i can just crank 1 per turn out and continue the attack that turn. 'pretty sure' because its been a month since i saw the turn...

mass-upping infantry chassis though.i use those more for garrisons, and do use trained. i drop them in behind my attacking units to hold the area. dont use them in attacking role unless on the first wave of the orbital attack with drop\trained and attacking a person i had a treaty with (you know what im talking about,the ignore aero 'bug' ...)

[Kataphraktoi]

Originally posted by Verrucosus
Regarding Maniac's comment about the Spartans: If I remember correctly, the unit upgrade costs are based on mineral rows and should be unaffected by the industry rating. (If it's different, that would be one example of my notes being wrong as a result of insufficient testing.)

Upgrade costs are min rows, i believe. In my above post i stated industry as a reason not to rushbuy, because i wouldnt get as much benefit from industry as i would from building normaly and rushing the actuall units.

[Maniac]

Originally posted by Verrucosus
Regarding Maniac's comment about the Spartans: If I remember correctly, the unit upgrade costs are based on mineral rows and should be unaffected by the industry rating.

Upgrade cost is indeed uneffected. But for example if you have to pay 10 credits to get a mineral row, and you're running +2 Industry, then you're paying 1,25 credits per mineral. If you're running -2 Industry however, you're only paying 0,83 credits per mineral, to get that same mineral row. Thus for low-industry factions upgrading instead of building is more cost-effective than for high-industry factions.

[Verrucosus]

That's correct and also, upon accurate reading, exactly what you said in the first post. Sorry about the confusion.

[Sikander]

I use shell upgrading for two reasons. Firstly to get elite units via the trained special ability. Secondly by the mid to late game my bases are often producing 200+ ecs per turn (post fusion). By building a trained shell I can put out one unit every turn from every build queue, and with the upgrade I can make sure that the unit is a strong one if I so desire. Even for players who produce enough mins in their own bases to build what they like it can still be quite useful to build shells in captured front line bases with low mineral outputs.

[Straybow]

Yes, late in the game I often have cities that could produce state of the art units in 3-4 turns, but it is more efficient to use one turn's production for a shell unit and then move on to something else important in the queue.

Playing SP I dont worry about making elites from a trained shell unit, but I can definitely see the need in MP.

[Ogie Oglethorpe]

Originally posted by Sikander
I use shell upgrading for two reasons. Firstly to get elite units via the trained special ability. Secondly by the mid to late game my bases are often producing 200+ ecs per turn (post fusion). By building a trained shell I can put out one unit every turn from every build queue, and with the upgrade I can make sure that the unit is a strong one if I so desire. Even for players who produce enough mins in their own bases to build what they like it can still be quite useful to build shells in captured front line bases with low mineral outputs.

One can also take advantage of the rapid turns of build quees by doing teh stockpile trick between units thus turning extra credits for the upgrades as required.

[Flubber]

Originally posted by Ogie Oglethorpe


One can also take advantage of the rapid turns of build quees by doing teh stockpile trick between units thus turning extra credits for the upgrades as required.

Agreed! The only problem is the PIA factor of having to go to every base every turn to adjust the build queues. Too bad you can't set the queue for unit/stockpile and repeat

( or is there a way??)

[Straybow]

Nope, stockpile never goes away. If you put something in the queue but leave stockpile in the build slot it never "finishes" and goes to the queued item.

I know, I've done this by mistake.