more on the mysteries of eco-damage

[sir stanley]

i've read some of the excellent threads on eco-damage and i've come to the conclusion that building tree farms is probably a bit of a waste of time since the game mechanics takes care of the problem in its own way. am i right or did i misinterpret what i have read by blake and others of equal renown? if tree farms are useful for eco-damage purposes, (never mind psych), is it ever so much more useful to build them after a pop bloom or does it really not matter that much? btw, i'm way too busy in my real life to test the hypothesis and, anyway, the information has already been collected.

sir s. suffering from cold and darkness in this frightful country and preparing to adapt by playing some hockey.

[Zoetrope]

OT Q: Is the Stanley Cup named after you, or conversely?

Unfortunately Australia provides limited opportunities for outdoor ice hockey, so we can hardly offer a worthy entry into that competition.

But if you'd like to contest the field hockey championship ...

[Flubber]

Most players have no problems intentionally bringing on their first pop so that treefarms can provide all their benefits.

Treefarms are often very useful outside the ecodamage issue for any base that has significant number of worked forest tiles.

[Lazerus]

I was about to dig out some of the old threads on this again after getting in some weird situations ...






Both are from the same game, same turn. Any explanations for why this is occuring ?? I'm making tree farms and other clean min raisers like crazy, and yet they're having very limited effect at some bases as can be seen.

ps, apologies on size and discolouration forgot to open paint first when i was playing.

[Flubber]

Laz

did the two bases have identical facilities?

I ask since many facilities seem to have a base-specific impact on the amount of ecodamage in addition to their impacts on the clean mineral limit

Try it -- Build a treefarm in a base and you will see the ecodamage chance go down far more than than I would expect can be explained by single additional clean mineral .. .

[Lazerus]

Base causing the pollution has tree farm + cent preserve, base without pollution just has tree farm ... which makes things even more confusing now.

Both are working 2 boreholes aswell since i've noticed they cause alot more ecodamage if you're over the limit then if you were over the limit working a forest.

[Flubber]

Originally posted by Lazerus
Base causing the pollution has tree farm + cent preserve, base without pollution just has tree farm ... which makes things even more confusing now.

Both are working 2 boreholes aswell since i've noticed they cause alot more ecodamage if you're over the limit then if you were over the limit working a forest.

hmmm even more interesting-- I confess I looked hard at the ecodamage formula to learn about clean minerals so I could control the ecodamage/no ecodamage in a given base . .. but I have never really understood how the chance of ecodamage number was calculated. I have noticed that a change of even 1-2 minerals can make large differences in this number.

edit could it be that a cent preserve has some sort of backward impact (ie modifies in the wrong direction)



So I am a bit baffled by your experience particularly since the terraforming is similar ( since it seemed the "chance" number could vary with terraforming near the base

[Flubber]

Oh and a curious observation-- why are you running nut levels so very high? Is this a faction that cannot pop-boom and you are just racing the growth?

Oh and I notice the two bases are a different size . . . could there be a size modifier we have missed? Although pollution at 16 minerals and none at 31 indicates that clean minerals is broken for this base.

Was this experience replicated on the next turn?? ( I was just wondering if you had complete a facility this turn and perhaps the numbers don't get adjusted right away . . .

[PJayTycy]

This looks like ecodamage from working advanced improvements (ie: boreholes / mirrors / ...) in 1 base, while working planet-friendly (ie: forest) tiles in the other base.

[sir stanley]

i'm following the discussion with interest. thanks for the bottom line info, flubber. for whatever reason, whether it's an intentional part of the design or not, tree farms are more effective after a pop. (doesn't make any sense and the best explanation i read is that it's a bit of a design oversight.) second, tree farms have many more benefits besides influencing eco-damage and i know they work synergistically with other facilities. i also gather, however, that eco-damage is not a really terrible thing as many people have posted cases of cities with tremendous eco-damage, and others have spoken of getting over a "hump" after which eco-damage doesn't really seem to result in any terrible retaliation form the planet. i guess experience will determine whether eco-damage is something to get excited about. sir s

[Flubber]

Originally posted by sir stanley
i also gather, however, that eco-damage is not a really terrible thing as many people have posted cases of cities with tremendous eco-damage, and others have spoken of getting over a "hump" after which eco-damage doesn't really seem to result in any terrible retaliation form the planet. i guess experience will determine whether eco-damage is something to get excited about. sir s

Ecodamage is NOT terrible. Its just a game feature to understand. Some people even design strategies around exploting it

For instance-- create a massive polluter base, well stocked with say 2 arty, 2-4 empath units and a command centre for healing. You ramp this base up to insane levels of mineral production and then wait for the worms to come since you KNOW that you can kill them

Pros

1. Steady stream of cash and morale upgrades
2. All those pops mean other bases can go higher and higher in mineral production with no negatives-- ie most of your bases are now within the clean mineral limit ( ie you are over the hump)
3. If you are crawling most of the minerals, you may not even lose much terraforming

Cons
1. takes a while to set up
2. You need formers working to clear fungus since I seem to recall that you can't get a pop if there are no non-fungus tiles but that could be wrong
3. Evetually, ecodamage will lead to sealevel rises and those are just annoying to deal with ( not difficult just the process is annoying)

[sir stanley]

yes. i've heard about this strategy and am going to try it.

[Lazerus]

Oh and a curious observation-- why are you running nut levels so very high? Is this a faction that cannot pop-boom and you are just racing the growth?

Which faction am i normally associated with correct about the racing growth, once limit is reached will switch food other bases.

edit could it be that a cent preserve has some sort of backward impact (ie modifies in the wrong direction)

I think you're onto something with that, i remember blake discovering that things such as the pholus mutagen whilst the said text states they reduce eco-damage actually do completely the opposite and ramp it up and it seems that the cent preserves are having the same effect on me in this game.

Base 1
Current year - 33 damage - 16 mins - tree farm + cent preserve !!
year (-1) - 0 damage - 16 mins - tree farm
year (-2) - 0 damage - 16 mins - tree farm
year (-3) - 0 damage - 16 mins - tree farm

Base 2
Current year - 0 damage - 31 mins - tree farm
year (-1) - 14 damage - 31 mins - tree farm
year (-2) - 0 damage - 16 mins - tree farm
year (-3) - 0 damage - 16 mins - tree farm

Considering that i've been rushing a fair few of them they do seem to be increasing the clean minerals at other bases as can be seen in base 2 but at the same time they're having a rather devastating effect in the base at which they're built. Which is rather annoying because i remember rushing atleast 10-15 of them last turn in an attempt to clear up all my eco damage and increase my minerals more ...

[Flubber]

Originally posted by Lazerus


Which faction am i normally associated with correct about the racing growth, once limit is reached will switch food other bases.



I think you're onto something with that, i remember blake discovering that things such as the pholus mutagen whilst the said text states they reduce eco-damage actually do completely the opposite and ramp it up and it seems that the cent preserves are having the same effect on me in this game.

Base 1
Current year - 33 damage - 16 mins - tree farm + cent preserve !!
year (-1) - 0 damage - 16 mins - tree farm
year (-2) - 0 damage - 16 mins - tree farm
year (-3) - 0 damage - 16 mins - tree farm

Base 2
Current year - 0 damage - 31 mins - tree farm
year (-1) - 14 damage - 31 mins - tree farm
year (-2) - 0 damage - 16 mins - tree farm
year (-3) - 0 damage - 16 mins - tree farm

Considering that i've been rushing a fair few of them they do seem to be increasing the clean minerals at other bases as can be seen in base 2 but at the same time they're having a rather devastating effect in the base at which they're built. Which is rather annoying because i remember rushing atleast 10-15 of them last turn in an attempt to clear up all my eco damage and increase my minerals more ...

So it seems that you should rush them for the clean mineral bump and then scrap them for the cash and to avoid the backwards modifier

You should go into your base year and scrap that preserve to see what happens

[Lazerus]

Eco damage reduced to zero, oh well guess we've found something maybe semi new

Never keep a centauri preserve once it's built or it's adverse effects are actually worse then what it's trying to remove.