Reading with Miriam: Extreme Believer Strategies and the Tech B-Line

[BlackCat]

Originally posted by smacksim
You are quite funny BlackCat!

From now on I too will keep my base placement "Strictly Ballroom" (makes me laugh). But I do know what you mean.

Thank you wery much

Though there are a little twist in "strictly ballroom' - sometimes illegal steps gives an advantage

[smacksim]

What I mean is that however I place my bases I will call it 'Strictly Ballroom' because of the double entendre. It is a good name for ICS though. Yang's minister of hygine would like it methinks.

[Kataphraktoi]

fascinating thread. i tried them this morning. huge,tech stag,extra aggresive enemies,and as an added twist i decided to be Always War like in civ3 i got WP and b-lined for foils so i can mass pop pods overseas. i supposei ll have boreholes and etc ready for when envoecon comes in but thats awile off.frankly i dont have any idea how to play like this,mostly use zak. and (gasp) i actually built solar collecters....i wonder if someone wouldnt look at my sav and give me some input particularily on former settings who i am not sure what to do with(or if im using right). on that topic i would be very interested in one of your sav's smacksim

fun faction to play anyway

[smacksim]

Sure, I'll attach a save as well, but realize that my handicaps are pretty extreme: No offensive probe actions or war until much later in the game. One interesting side effect of fast early growth is that the enemy AI hate you earlier. I wasn't even offered the merest curtesies in diplomacy in my most recent game. In fact, all the AI pacted against me before I'd even met half of them.

Also, consider making the AI as passive as possible, rather than agressive, if you want a challenge. 'Agressive' settings only hurt them and their development. Of course, that does make for an interesting game, just not (usually) as challenging for the human player.

Final note on my challenge settings: I must admit, its kind of boring! Its exciting to worry about being invaded by superior troops, but its boring not to have anything going on agressively.

Here's a save right after I discovered PSA, which means I'm 'allowed' to start offensive probe actions under my rules. I played with 27 3x3 bases until recently when I decided to go ahead and ICS the rest of the continent = ~55 bases or so:

[smacksim]

The save:

[Kataphraktoi]

hmm i didnt even think of that on agressiveness. yeah they do even worse with big innefective armys

[BlackCat]

I don't think that they build large armies - they just easier start fighting "internally" and thereby weakening themselfes.

That is at least my experience. Of course they are also more agressive against me, but I usually don't look for them in the start, so it's first when they discover me they get annoying

[BlackCat]

I don't think that Mim is fit for the modern world - one thing is to contest for WP, HGP and ME wich is possible, but then the drones starts the CC way before IA and then the battle is lost - you can't possibly reach IA and still catch up on CC research.

Another thing is that it's essential to pop AA's - without those you loose easily.

Dang, do I really have to press the SMAC button when starting the program to solve this challenge ?

[smacksim]

I don't use AA's for tech (another handicap). Ordinarily I don't use them for rush-building either and just save them till the end of game for future-techs (score), but in this challenge I allow to be used for early Secret Projects. I agree though, if you want to get ahead in tech, its tempting to use them.

On a strategy note, by waiting for PSA to do probe actions, you will have researched Cyberethics and the ability to build the Planetary Datalinks. I got about 6 techs from that project, though it does seem bugged (2 techs each turn out of that 6, then didn't recieve a couple that I should have).

[binTravkin]

I don't use AA's for tech (another handicap).

No, it's not actually a handicap.
Using AAs for tech is handicap with all factions but uni, who can withstand increased tech cost.
AA techs are random and for Mim popping AP that way, its a disaster.

I use AAs for SPs early, after I have crucial SPs built, which in this case is WP, others are more or less optional, I will stockpile AAs after that (usually after 2140) and approaching endgame (2170-2210 depending on various factors) try shooting a tech advantage.

[Chaos Theory]

Early on, 1/4 of a secret project is considerably more valuable than a random tech, when you're trying to follow beelines and may not even have network nodes. Later, 1/6 or 1/8 of a project doesn't compare favorably to a free tech that you probably need for some reason.

[smacksim]

Its a handicap with 20 AAs or so, or in the mid-game when you have 20 AAs and no worries about getting all the projects. Yes, its not too smart to cash them for tech in the early game, esp. as Miriam, but that's not what I mean by 'handicap'.

I completely agree though that popping AP (or Mobility for that matter) is a tragedy, particularly before you've researched your first tech. One certainly can avoid popping pods early, but thats quite painful too......

[Macready]

Hello -

I read this thread with interest a week or so ago, because I've been casually pursuing a goal of winning with all factions on Transcend difficulty, using every possible victory condition at least once (not every victory condition with every faction though -- I just wanted to win each way at least one time with SOME faction).

I was down to the Believers and the Gaians (and still no economic victory), and I decided to take a crack at the Believers. I'm not much of a momentum player unless an opportunity for conquest literally falls into my lap, so I tried to internalize some of the concepts in this thread so I could pursue my more peaceful approach to the game.

Game options: huge random map, sparse cloud cover, 50-70 percent water, normal erosion, abundant native life, ironman, tech stag, directed research. SMAC, not SMACX. In short, I found it extremely difficult to get the ball rolling. Obviously went for CE first, and whiled away the wait expanding horizontally. Not long after I got CE, Lal began work on the WP, which forced me to slow my expansion in order to build the project with the help of bases cranking out units to cash in. I barely beat Lal to it.

So I did get the WP, and that was huge. I immediately began to pursue a strategy of 2 farm-condenser tiles per base (most bases using 3 formers) with the intent of a very specialist-heavy approach. This put me into an interesting position -- I could basically pursue a builder path without bothering with many builder techs. The condensers bypassed the need for lifting nutrient restrictions, I could crawl minerals from forests, and harvesting energy was being ignored in the short term in favor of using specialists, with plans to crawl energy later in the game. Tree farms were not important to growth since I was fielding so few workers and leveraging condensers so heavily. Further, 4 free units per base meant that clean reactors were not so crucial, and running Power later in the game with 2 SPs (the +2 SE support one and Cloning Vats to eliminate the Power negative) gave me a whopping +4 SE support even under Democracy. That basically means every unit is clean without adding that ability! This is literally the first game I've ever run Power, and also the first one in which I never once built a clean unit. +4 SE support is definitely a fun thing to try at least once.

Anyway, although I did eventually turn myself into my normal economic/research powerhouse, and was considered #1 on the power graph for 90% (or more) of the game due to my early condenser-fueled growth, I had a terribly slow start. I mean terribly slow. I was running Simple/Planned/Wealth as soon as I could, and switched to FM as soon as I could deal with losing police without losing too much production. I skipped Demo to preserve my support-free former army -- the efficiency boost was negligible to my 2-on-the-diagonal base setup, and I was already growing like a weed. In the end, it took me almost 100 years to get to IA, and I didn't break the beeline even once! Can you imagine what a human playing the University would have done to me? Ouch. And I only barely managed to get WP -- I didn't even take a shot at the others, as I had no hope of succeeding (it was in fact my realization that the anti-drone SPs weren't going to come my way that pushed me toward the specialist approach).

So the WP ended up being both a blessing and a curse. It gave me lots to do during the long pre-IA stone age, but the expansion sacrifices I made in acquiring it and the AI hostility as a result of my quick growth combined to really slow my early progress.

This was my very first game with the Believers, and I'm sure there are far better players in the world than me. Even so, I didn't think my play was too terrible, so I was just wondering if any experienced Believers-as-Builders players had any advice on the subject of how to obtain IA as fast as possible -- my performance in that area was deplorable. The only thing I can think of at the moment is to try a FM-at-all-costs approach, shooting for that tech ASAP after CE without breaking the IA beeline, and just dealing with the loss of police however I have to.

Anyway, final result - economic victory (my first ever!) in 2349 (initiated cornering the market in 2329). Transcendence was probably about 15 turns away if I'd gone that route. Certainly a slow game for me -- to give you a frame of reference, in similar conditions (tech stag, etc.) using faster-starting factions I normally win by diplomatic (or sometimes conquest) victory in the 2270-80 range. I used to hold out for Transcendence but now it just seems silly not to grab the win however possible (I imagine my faction going on to transcend not long after achieving whatever quicker victory condition).

Thanks for reading...looking forward to any thoughts.

[binTravkin]

In the end, it took me almost 100 years to get to IA

Methinks you must try a little harder..
(one can make it in 30yrs from 2110, by 2140)

to try a FM-at-all-costs approach

You bet!

[Chaunk]

Originally posted by binTravkin

to try a FM-at-all-costs approach

You bet!

I'm yet to be convinced this is the best aproach for the believers. To my mind, they are the best at early pop booming, and I'll be willing to pass up IA for that. Size 7 bases by 2130? Oooh yes please. And still expanding easily, despite demo, with police. Any time.

The believers disadvantages are obvious, but some of their advantages need a little more work to use*.

*Edit: When pursuing a more traditional builder Beeline.