Units that would serve the AI's well?

[Darsnan]

So I've been playing around with different units over the years, as well as different concepts. One of these concepts that has really gained ground with me recently is the idea of giving the AI's units that have the ability to capture enemy units. Examples would be as follows:

1) Attack Sub with Marine Detachment capability: a sub is difficult to detect, and can easily sneak up to an enemies coastline. By also giving this unit a Marine Detachment, the unit then has the capability to capture all sorts of good units a human builds (but that an AI would never build). Many benefits for the AI's here!

2) Hovertank Probe Team with Psi armor: Hovertanks move 3 squares over any terrain (and 9 over roads!), making them very mobile and extremely difficult to defend against. Giving these units Psi armor then makes them significantly difficult to kill (especially since the AI has the annoying habit of walking probes right up to a base and then parking them there). Finally, because its a Probe Team, why these units aer very capable of capturing many good units, which are then automatically catalogued into the AI's workshop and are available to build!

3) AA unit. I've played around with both a rover and infantry chassis. The rover is a much better choice in that it is much more mobile, and mimics closely the SP-88 of World War 2.

So, what kinds of units do you think would benefit the AI's well?


D

[GeoModder]

Probe cruiser, of course. Darsnan, how could you forget that classic.

AA unit? Do you mean a ground unit with the ability to attack planes?

[Darsnan]

Originally posted by GeoModder
Probe cruiser, of course. Darsnan, how could you forget that classic.

Googlie's Probe Cruiser is of course what started this all - its become so ingrained that I consider it a base unit in the game now!

Originally posted by GeoModder
AA unit? Do you mean a ground unit with the ability to attack planes?

Yes! Since the AI's have never built these units, humans have become accustomed to simply posting up a needlejet over their advancing troops to shield them from counterattack by the AI's. However if the AI's then were equipped with a AA unit, that would negate this typical human strategy (or significantly impede it).


D

[Leon Trotsky]

Are you sure the AI will leave offensive units defending it's base? I'm not quite sure it can handle the concept of counterstrike.

[Petek]

How about probe teams with air superiority? These can subvert human-designed air units, with benefits similar to what you've already noted.

[Chaos Theory]

Perhaps change the default probe team to have air superiority, and ban humans from reverse engineering that.

[Mart]

The units I experimented with were different. I do not have any summary of all of them, but here are some examples. I distinguish good and bad ones.

Good Units

• Police Guard, Police, high morale. forced cost 1 mineral row.
  The high morale is here in order to make for player possible just making regular police units. As you maybe know, game does not allow upgrades to pre-defined units from alphax.txt (try upgrade unity foil to transport foil = no way). Then, this police guard, also helps human player, but AI better uses non-lethal ability this way. set as defensive units, they stay in bases. In Nexus experiment, AI (Morgan) was using them. Univ also IIRC. Good for setting other than Free Market.
  
  Maybe an example, Nexus experiment 2237:
  Faction - active units - Police rating - effect
  -------------------------------------
  Gaians - 10 active, 3 lost - 0 police (1 unit) - 5 bases use full, 2 bases just one drone each, simply no more population. So total 7 bases.
  Hive - none
  Univ - 5 active, 6 lost - 0 police (1 unit) - 4 bases make good use of it
  Morgan - 12 active, 10 lost - -5 police, but Morgan had times with no Free Market
  Spartan - none
  Believe - none
  
  Deimos experiment 2191:
  Faction - active units - Police rating - effect
  -------------------------------------
  Gaians - 3 active, 0 lost - 0 police (1 unit) - just 1 drone each, bases too small
  Hive - 6 active, 0 lost - -3 police (0 units)
  Morgan - none
  Spartan - 4 active, 1 lost - +2 Police (3 units) - as Gaians...
  Believe - none
  PK - 9 active, 0 list - -4 police (0 units)
  
  However in Deimos, I will expect more effect later, as AI grows in population
  
• Unity Supply Droid, supply, disabled, forced cost 1 row.
  This one is only for game start. AI is somewhat even smart sending it for resources. Until an SP is build...
  Link

Bad ones

• All sorts of land transports. AI completely does not know, what to do with them. I intend to write an article on this... just when I find some time.

-----------------------
And special note for Darsnan:

You asked in some other thread about giving a copter "combat" AI plan. I did that in Deimos Experiment. I made missile, support copter. AI keeps them in bases, for defense? counterstrike? AI seems to use "assault" AI plan for hitting bases. Read post below:
Link

------------------------
About AI making tacticals:

Nexus Experiment, 2237:
tactical (total) - bombers (total)
------------------
Gaians - 2 - 2
Hive - 13 - 23
Univ - 3 - 0
Morgan - 9 - 3
Spartan - 7 - 20
Believe - 2 - 6

So AI, if conditioned can build tacticals and actually use it to destroy human units and planes.
I write, since you point Darsnan AI rather rarely has AA units. Actually, if given proper resources as capabilities, there is "hidden" but good AI somewhere in game engine. Just Firaxis did not do enough testing to make it come out more often. That is my impresion.

---------------------
Nexus and Deimos Experiments are still on. I may have more units tested by this scenarios. For example clean, high morale former in Deimos, or trawler.

[Kirov]

If you set a unit as a predefined one, when can AI build it? Straight away or after the relevant tech?

I'd like to see all sorts of hovertanks in hands of AI long before the hover tech comes in play. I even don't know its name, as I almost never play that far...

The same goes for subs with marine depots. Have you checked that in the game already?

[Mart]

Originally posted by Kirov
If you set a unit as a predefined one, when can AI build it? Straight away or after the relevant tech?

unit mast be enabled in order to build it. Tech must be either none or some other tech, that would allow you to build that unit.

[Flubber]

Re: Units that would serve the AI's well?

Originally posted by Darsnan


1) Attack Sub with Marine Detachment capability: a sub is difficult to detect, and can easily sneak up to an enemies coastline. By also giving this unit a Marine Detachment, the unit then has the capability to capture all sorts of good units a human builds (but that an AI would never build). Many benefits for the AI's here!

D

Having played some of your scenarios . . .

I LOVED this unit for me-- even though I knew the sub ability was pretty irrelevent against the AI. The cheap cost meant I amss produced lots of them and the fact I had the MCC meant I captured way more AI units than the reverse-- A fun unit to play against

Originally posted by Darsnan


2) Hovertank Probe Team with Psi armor: Hovertanks move 3 squares over any terrain (and 9 over roads!), making them very mobile and extremely difficult to defend against. Giving these units Psi armor then makes them significantly difficult to kill (especially since the AI has the annoying habit of walking probes right up to a base and then parking them there). Finally, because its a Probe Team, why these units aer very capable of capturing many good units, which are then automatically catalogued into the AI's workshop and are available to build!


D

This one could be nasty-- In your scenarios I found the AI played a much stronger probe game than usual ( well it TRIED to ) so this would be a fun one to play against

Originally posted by Darsnan



3) AA unit. I've played around with both a rover and infantry chassis. The rover is a much better choice in that it is much more mobile, and mimics closely the SP-88 of World War 2.




D

I think here you mean a SAM unit which can attack aircraft-- THis can be a nasty suprise and they mean that you have to delay attacking until you have an overwhelming attack force. Otherwise a SAM rover kills two planes a turn

The other type of unit that can really help an AI is soem form of psi unit defender. I think you had them in one of your challenges and they really slowed conquest of the AI since they are immune to your 2 reactor advantage. Arty was my solution to get past them but even then you would take some damage on each chopper attack

[Maniac]

Sea Formers, Foil, Formers, Scout, 9, 0, 0, whatever, -1, 00000000000000000000000000

as a basic unit improves Pirate performance.

[Darsnan]

Originally posted by Kirov
If you set a unit as a predefined one, when can AI build it? Straight away or after the relevant tech?

After the relevent tech as defined in the #UNITS Section of the alpha(x).txt file.

Originally posted by Kirov
I'd like to see all sorts of hovertanks in hands of AI long before the hover tech comes in play. I even don't know its name, as I almost never play that far...

What with Chaos Theory's and mart7X5's recent work with Scenarios, why I am pretty eager to start work on my next SP Challenge. I'll probably throw some hovertanks into the mix starting around the time of MMI...

Originally posted by Kirov
The same goes for subs with marine depots. Have you checked that in the game already?

Here again its simply what tech you assign the unit to in the #UNITS Section of the alpha(x).txt file. I personally am settling in at Doc:Init as the tech for a sub, however depending on the circumstances others might choose something higher in the tech tree.

D

[Mart]

Just a recent result of testing:

Eco-former, clean,police former with forced cost of 3 mineral rows.

So far in my test Hive is making them in large number. Although, it is setup to "build many formers", it helps a lot an AI due to no upkeep of these units. I wonder when other factions will start making them this many as Hive

[Blake]

Police... former? What does that result in?

[Mart]

The police ability is here in order that you can still make a clean former. Otherwise, as I recall, game engine does not allow you to design the clean former as your own unit when it is pre-defined in alphax.txt. It is only for that purpose, actually I do not know if stationed such former in a base would act as police.