Do you consider ICS to be a problem?

[Senethro]

Thank you for that correction. So noted.
(Does anyone think that self-destruct is to powerful in certain circumstances?)

[Commy]

Builders do better on small or standard maps, NOT LARGE OR HUGE...the reason for this is because the builder will have to expand little before settling into builder mode...hybrids and momentums will kill on large maps because they expand so quickly, they don't have to build to be economically and industrially powerful...

As far as I am concerned, ICSing is a sin...it is not at all unstoppable, but rather, the only way to defeat it is not by being a builder, but either militaristic or by being anarchist...

I ICSed one time while playing hot seat...my friend, who at the time typically lost on citizen level defeated my ICS pattern with just a few PBs and probe teams...even with a puny economy, a foe can still triumph over ICS...

True, it was my first time ICSing, but I remember having orbital spaceflight before 2200, and I didn't even beeline to it...actually, I think I built the cloning vats before then as well, but not too sure on that...

[Ka Plewy]

Originally posted by Senethro
[...] The balancing of Sparta [...]

I like using childrens creches when the AI plays Sparta. I haven't play tested extensively, though.

[Flubber]

Originally posted by Senethro
Thank you for that correction. So noted.
(Does anyone think that self-destruct is to powerful in certain circumstances?)

YES

Once people have the 10 weapon and fusion reactors, all fission units are dead with a single destruct and you powerful stack of fusion reactor units die to two self destructs

[Senethro]

Originally posted by Commy
Builders do better on small or standard maps, NOT LARGE OR HUGE...the reason for this is because the builder will have to expand little before settling into builder mode...hybrids and momentums will kill on large maps because they expand so quickly, they don't have to build to be economically and industrially powerful...

As far as I am concerned, ICSing is a sin...it is not at all unstoppable, but rather, the only way to defeat it is not by being a builder, but either militaristic or by being anarchist...

I ICSed one time while playing hot seat...my friend, who at the time typically lost on citizen level defeated my ICS pattern with just a few PBs and probe teams...even with a puny economy, a foe can still triumph over ICS...

True, it was my first time ICSing, but I remember having orbital spaceflight before 2200, and I didn't even beeline to it...actually, I think I built the cloning vats before then as well, but not too sure on that...

People, please, seriously now, VALID examples only. WHile a lot of stuff here is going to be anecdotal, your first time ICSing is NOT a good example of anything to do with ICS.

And what is your definition of a builder? Are you meaning someone who stays small and expands vertically? I would define an ICS builder as someone who just borgs across the entire map if you'll let them.

[paramir]

If the AI ICSed then it woulden't be a problem, but now it is

[#endgame]

I think someone put an AI in the jungle, set priority to growth and got almost perfect 1x1 ICS once.

[binTravkin]

Ok, this is becoming badly derailed. The balancing of Sparta and to a lesser extent Pirates and other hybrid styles against pure builder over large map through use of pod popping is an entirely separate issue (one I would like to address, but not today.)

Firstly, you can't throw some arguments out of the window like this just because you don't want to talk about them (whatever is the reason of this unwillingness).

When pretending some strategy is superior to all others you can't just ignore some aspects of game.

A momentum faction like Sparta which goes for D:Flex early and grabs as much land and sea pods as it can can easily become very powerful.

Yes, it's vertical growth. Who does not want his 200 mineral 0-3t-2 crawler finished in a single instabuild?

It's just so easy to build Secret Projects with those.
In an ongoing game (CGN 25) playing Gaians I had 2 explorers - mind worms (only 2!!!) and they got 2 instabuilds for me and 2 AAs till 2129. I was able to finish PTS in 2130 and am looking forward to grab PTS and HGP in a couple of turns.

The importance of pod popping just can't be ignored when talking which tactic is the most powerful.

It's just the newbiestic builder style. They don't pop pods much, just build LOTS of CPs, formers and crawlers and never go out of their borders because of FM.

I say go try it! You will be amazed how much and how early you can gain power by pod popping.

And ICS early is very vulnerable because usually you don't even have garrisons (except if Hive) for the sake of faster buildup. I hope you don't deny this.


The example I mentioned - ACDG3 is a good one.
In this game players are not just some newbies which try ICS their first time.

ICS was exactly what Morgan was doing. Not ICS1x1 of course because early you can't found base on each rocky and fungus square, you just don't have the former speed for it, but it was gooing to be such.

Morgan had PTS, PEG and HGP.
Sparta had CN and MCC.

Guess who won?

Sparta!

And Sparta is winning badly!

Not just some occasional luck or a sligh difference between turnplayer skills.

It is a good example ICS can be beaten and also a good example big maps are not in favour of builders.


And talking about your mentioned 50% condensers 25% boreholes 25% bases.
Yes, okay, you can do it, but the question is not whether you can, but when you can do it.

In one game (CGN 21) where Im Hive I have huge empire and around 150 formers plus Weather Paradigm.

It's past 2190 and I have terraformed 1/3rd of the "50% condensors 25% boreholes" grid.

In a normal mutliplayer game you can't be so quick to do it.

By the time you have half of that a nearby momentum faction has:
1. built all the military SPs it could.
2. built some infra (for popbooming)
3. popboomed for some 10 yrs
4. built an airborne force to attack you and destroy your neat terraforming.


My conclusion:

ICS is powerful.
But no strategy is universal.
ICS favours only some of the factions and ICS is not likely to succeed upon certain circumstances like abundant fungus and/or too much rocks.
Factions which I consider suited for a success in ICS:
1.Hive
Ultimate ICS faction - Patrol, Former, CP infinite loop. (add crawlers after IA)
2.Drones
One less drone helps with b-drones and +3 INDUSTRY is just sweet.
3.Morgan.
That 8+ energy per base you can get is worth trying to rush more and more bases.
4.Uni
Only with a prerequsition of VW. If you manage to get PTS as well, you're gold ICSer. Playing with equal opponents will rarely end up you having them both.

Some other factions like Angels amd Believers could do well too, but they're "inbetween" successfull ICS or rare-base popbooming.

CyCon usually gets no chance but to ICS (probably some looser variation like 1x2 or 2x2) due to -1 growth.

Cult and Sparta are definitely better for popbooming.

Pirates are out of competition. Their base placement should be ultimate search for a bonus-rich areas.
I've ended up my faction scattered all over the world sometimes this way.
And I don't understand persons saying Pirates should go to land early.
What's the benefit from it?
Pirates have -1 Growth and -1Effic and no land bonuses, thus they'd be way weaker on land than any other land faction.

The ultimate mistake I made in one PBEM (CGN22) which I lost was ICS with PKs.
They lose 2 of their best bonuses when ICSing - talent per 4 citizens and increased pop limit.
Talents get eliminateed by b-drones and you rarely get pop up to 7+ early enough.

I'd say PKs are ultimate popbooming faction - the more pop they have the more votes, talents and they can have much pop in a single base.

Did I forgot someone?
I don't consider aliens worth playing for a human, they're just so boring.


And AI does ICS, yes.
Actually you don't even need to set priority to explore, just put it into Jungle.

[Sebed]

welll, well, welll...
the above binTravkin's post is very mellow post and contains lots of valuable informations
those comments are very valuable, because they come strictly from experience!
and i agree with great majority of them!
many players should be able to learn from that post above a lots!
good work, binTravkin - it was your the best post i ever read...

[binTravkin]

because they come strictly from experience!

I actually think that I made my summary on ICS strategy here.
I learned about ICS year ago and have been using it ever since.
It's lots of SP games, a couple of TCP/IP games and almost 20 PBEMs.

Over that time span I have been turning ICS inside-out (or how it is spelled in English).
I can't probably say that I know every bonus and malus of it but I have tried each and every faction in ICS and it is pretty obvious for me now which ones are suited, and which ones are not.

[Sikander]

Originally posted by Senethro
Thank you for that correction. So noted.
(Does anyone think that self-destruct is to powerful in certain circumstances?)

In all circumstance where it does damage to other units, yes.

[Sikander]

Originally posted by binTravkin
Firstly, you can't throw some arguments out of the window like this just because you don't want to talk about them (whatever is the reason of this unwillingness).

When pretending some strategy is superior to all others you can't just ignore some aspects of game.

Oh the irony.

[binTravkin]

In the post above I've actually forgot Gaians.

Well, due to their usual Demo/Planned/Wealth SE combo they're pretty suited for a constant popboom.

But ICS can be an option if you grab PTS - fungal nutrients will help your bases not to starve early.
I'd say they're "inbetween" faction along with Believers and Angels.

Oh the irony.

Didn't catch you.

[Mead]

Originally posted by binTravkin


***

The example I mentioned - ACDG3 is a good one.
In this game players are not just some newbies which try ICS their first time.

ICS was exactly what Morgan was doing. Not ICS1x1 of course because early you can't found base on each rocky and fungus square, you just don't have the former speed for it, but it was gooing to be such.

Morgan had PTS, PEG and HGP.
Sparta had CN and MCC.

Guess who won?

Sparta!

And Sparta is winning badly!

The game is not over yet.

Not just some occasional luck or a sligh difference between turnplayer skills.

There were at least two instances that I am personally aware of where luck or skill played a significant role is Sparta's game.

Postmortems of the game can be fully done after the game is over, but I feel that the ability to make ships early on greatly enhanced Sparta's position. The ships enabled early exploration, diplomacy, infiltration, and tech steals. The ships and rovers allowed early invasions.

Although bigger maps give builders more distance from the militaristic factions, Sparta can get ahead by getting out to explore.


Mead

[binTravkin]

The game is not over yet.

Yes it is not, I was just demonstrating that as good example ICS can be beaten.

There were at least two instances that I am personally aware of where luck or skill played a significant role is Sparta's game.

Ok, I was not aware of this, but anyways, do you think this luck/skill was what actually made Sparta so powerful now?

Postmortems of the game can be fully done after the game is over, but I feel that the ability to make ships early on greatly enhanced Sparta's position. The ships enabled early exploration, diplomacy, infiltration, and tech steals. The ships and rovers allowed early invasions.

Although bigger maps give builders more distance from the militaristic factions, Sparta can get ahead by getting out to explore.

Yes and by "getting out to explore" it can make itself powerful popping all those juice pods underway.