Miriam reformed?

[Natalinasmpf]

This is probably done to death countless times, but I think Miriam should get -1 Research, not -2, since she only gets +1 probe in faction power. And remove the -Planet, it doesn't make sense, its much an extremist agenda as anyone else, and well, I think they don't think Planet is their promised land, its just a land they seek to build their culture on.

[Hydro]

I think the -1 Planet is more that the Believers are much less likely to ‘get’ the idea of a sentient planet, or the Gaia notion, since their religion-based society makes them less open to ideas that contradict their God-based ideology. The idea and workings of Planet does not really contradict the ideology of the other factions, and some factions (Gaians, Cult) are predisposed toward this idea from the start. Factions may choose to disregard Planet by FM SE, of course, but that is a choice, not a predisposition.

As to -1 vs. -2 research, that is a matter of opinion. My view is that any society that has a religious ideology at its core is less likely to have a vigorous and unfettered research base, but whether this would be -1 or -2 is a matter of debate.

Also, note that a minus and plus in any particular ability is not necessarily equivalent. To be honest, -1 Planet is not that much of a penalty on land since you get a 50 percent bonus in attacking native life in the first place, and a negative or positive Planet rating does not affect defense at all. By contrast, a +1 Planet is huge since it allows capture of MWs, and apparently makes traveling into fungus a little easier.

Overall I think the factions are pretty well balanced, and can give players the chance to stretch their abilities and play the builders, hybrids, or conquerors, or play a faction in a manner that may not suit its predisposition. This, and SE, are one of SMACs biggest innovations, and what has kept the game fresh even after it has limped into old age (from a gaming point of view).

Hydro

[Natalinasmpf]

since their religion-based society makes them less open to ideas that contradict their God-based ideology

I think not so, since extrasentience isn't particularly condemning, (plus a sentient planet does not suggest it actually has a soul, its just sentient)....take for example Yang's followers, they should be less receptive as well, always worshipping the personality cult that is Yang.

The loss in fungal production, well can be bad in late game, then there's eco-damage.

since you get a 50 percent bonus in attacking native life in the first place

Fungal Towers? Morale vs lifecycles?

[Hydro]

Based on my chats with fundamentalists and evangelicals, humans are the center of God’s creation and the planet Earth is made for their use/stewardship/abuse (as stipulated in the Bible). A sentient planet would be a direct contradiction that we are God’s chosen people, created in his image, since that intelligence suggests 1) humans aren’t the center of creation, 2) evolution is correct and that intelligence can evolve (**gasp!**) or be created (**shudder!**), 3) the Biblical timeline that indicates the earth, the universe, and humanity was created by fiat several thousand years ago is bunk, 4) there may be other intelligences that can create life or the Chiron ecosystem (the Progenitors), which steps on God’s prerogatives to create life and 5) that the Bible is incorrect or incomplete since it says nothing about other planets, much less planets with intelligent creatures (MWs) and a restive ecosystem that can become humanity’s New Eden.

My conversations and readings on the subject indicate that creationists/evangelicals have a closed view of the universe, and that this view is dictated by a literal interpretation of the Old and New Testament, and a belief that the Bible contains the whole Truth (with a capital ‘T’). Admitting a sentient planet or other intelligences that are hundreds of millions of years old blows large holes in this self-contained belief system, and forces those adherents into a new and likely uncomfortable reality.

As to Yang, he would use any information to his advantage, or force his people into an Orwellian doublethink if this is inconvenient. He would care not one whit about a sentient planet outside of how it would serve him and his dreams of a united humanity under his iron rule.

Hydro

[fender]

Hydro. You need to speak to more Christians!!!


1. The bible does not say anywhere that the earth or the universe is only a few thousand years old.

2. The Jews are Gods chosen people.

3. The bible is not and cannot be everything to everyone. It is not an astronomical book, or a book on geography. Have you noticed they are no mentions of the pyramids or other great landmarks in the bible, yet Egypt plays a large role in the Old Testament? The bible only mentions people and places important to the story, or in direct line to Jesus Christ. That is its purpose.


Getting back to the post. I think Miriam's -2 is a bit harsh. -1 planet would be enough.

[Natalinasmpf]

+2 support, +1 morale, +1 probe and -1 Research would be good enough. I think the extra negative research and planet settings is uncalled for. Since +probe should have the same amount of negative research.

+2 research, -2 probe, +1 probe, -1 Research!

[Enigma_Nova]

EDIT: forget this post

[Chaos Theory]

Natalina: by late game, when fungus is productive, you should be running Green anyway. Add cybernetic by the time you could get the Manifold Harmonics, and the -1 Planet penalty just fades away, in terms of lost fungus production.

Fender: Hydro is referring to fundamentalists who call themselves Christian. It's sort of like suicide bombers in the Middle East who call themselves Islamic, except our* fundamentalists are more peaceful, and actually capable of living in society (for the most part). Also, on point 1, someone calculated at some point when the world must have begun by adding up ages in the old T, and got ~4000 BC. So it does say that, indirectly.

I'm sure Enigma_Nova had something much harsher to say, given his personality.

Note: our = American, as opposed to their = Middle Eastern/Asian

[molly bloom]

Originally posted by Chaos Theory
Also, on point 1, someone calculated at some point when the world must have begun by adding up ages in the old T, and got ~4000 BC. So it does say that, indirectly.

I'm sure Enigma_Nova had something much harsher to say, given his personality.

Archbishop James Ussher- 4004 B.C.

http://www.lhup.edu/~dsimanek/ussher.htm

I believe the guiding intellectual principles behind Miriam's faction (as depicted in the game, and on the Firaxis website) is best conveyed by this early church father's pronouncement:

"...so poor is all the useful knowledge which is gathered from the books of the heathen when compared with the knowledge of Holy Scripture, for whatever man may have learnt from other sources, if it is hurtful, it is there condemned; if it is useful, it is therein contained...

...he will find there in much greater abundance things that are to be found nowhere else, but can be learnt only in the wonderful sublimity and wonderful simplicity of the Scriptures."

–St. Augustine (354-430 a.d.)

'De Doctrina Christiana', 2.42

"Sacred Scripture Compared with Profane Authors"

This certainly explains the hostility towards knowledge and democracy, and the blind acceptance of dogma and 'auctoritas'.

[Quezacotl06]

Miriam's -1 Planet is meant to be more of a hinderance in using native life as combat weapons. As for -1 -- -2 for Research, it should be left as it is. -1 Research isn't a significant differance overall in labs, and it could easily be countered by devoting more energy to labs. -2 makes it more difficult. And having +25% attack plus slightly-aged weapons is dangerous. Reduce the bonus to 12.5%, and -1 would be more balenced.

[babbler]

I believed that the -1 planet was to keep the Believers form building a gaint army of Mindworms.

[Straybow]

Huh? SE Planet rating effects attack but not defense?

/me considers…
Could be. Defenders at sea should gain substantially if Planet effected defense, but I haven't noticed any great difference between Green vs others.

I don't think St Auggie was talking about practical knowledge such as geometry etc, but rather assertions of competing philosophies and cults. Granted the categories overlapped somewhat in his day, such as astronomy and astrology.

[fender]

Fender: Hydro is referring to fundamentalists who call themselves Christian. It's sort of like suicide bombers in the Middle East who call themselves Islamic, except our* fundamentalists are more peaceful, and actually capable of living in society (for the most part). Also, on point 1, someone calculated at some point when the world must have begun by adding up ages in the old T, and got ~4000 BC. So it does say that, indirectly

I agree. There is a big difference or a least can be, from someone calling themselves Christian and those that are.

As far as the creaton theory goes. What I should have said was......There is a passage in the bible that says, "A day onto the Lord is as a thousand years". I other words, it could be any length of time.

If you take the seven days of creaton as 24 hr days, then you have a problem.

Anyway, sorry for this. I never wanted to get into anytype of theological discussion. This is not the place for that.

Thanks, and I hope no harm is done.

[Natalinasmpf]

Actually I tend to think it as "days of the Universe" - one day is one rotation. When the Universe is very small, like at the time of the Big Bang, one day would be one nanosecond. Light. The second day would be much longer as the universe would have expanded much quickly within the next spin. On the third day, much much longer, perhaps by 10^100 times. By the time we reach humanity, the sixth day, well, it would have taken billions of years for the universe to come to a full rotation.

[Flubber]

Originally posted by Straybow
Huh? SE Planet rating effects attack but not defense?

* Straybow considers…
Could be. Defenders at sea should gain substantially if Planet effected defense, but I haven't noticed any great difference between Green vs others.
:

yes-- So for a player using Free market, this negative planet rating is irrelevant whenever he defends-- It just pretty much negates the advantage of attacking the worms