Life on Alpha Centauri

[Hydro]

Digression is the better part of valor

[Enigma_Nova]

Hydro:
I don't (and AFAIK can't) differentiate between an 'aware' process and an 'inanimate' process in value,
though I do respect that it's more challenging to manipulate a person than it is to bend a coathanger.

not feeling your own emotions or believe you have emotions

I'm uncertain about whether I feel emotions or believe in emotions.
I don't expect you'll know what that means, either.

differences between beliefs and feelings imply that life, awareness, and feelings are salient concepts.

Statements are unrelated. I was being Nonlinear.

I assume that most people like to be treated with a moderate amount of respect,
don’t like pain to be inflicted upon them, and would prefer that their family and community members be allowed to prosper.

Then decieve them into thinking they're respected,
Get their mind off the pain,
and re-educate their definition of 'prosperous'.

Sadly, not everyone is a masochist that will enjoy your anal probes, nor will most be interested in subordinating themselves to your will.

But some are masochists, and that's enough to test the probe.
As for subordination - it's not subordination.
You're influencing their will so they willingly do what you want.
If they are following their own desires and dreams, then how is that subordination?

The strategy that consistently won was a simple strategy of cooperation and trust building,

I am alreay applying that strategy, Hydro.
I am open (trusting) with my statements.
I will take a task upon myself to benefit others.

The disparity lies in that my personality is predisposed to:
Understand something,
Create ideas about it, and
Express those ideas.

I see clearly past socially atributed mores and values,
but in being expressive I state a point of view that violates the presumptions of others - and offends them.
I understand things, then apply the understanding to get a clearer perspective - and iterate.

Net effect is to get an opinion that violates enough presumptions to trigger responses of territorial defence, ignorance and retribution.
And, in my state of working for my own opinion, I'm seen as attacking others.

Unfortunately, you are wrong. There's nothing bad about my personality,
Nor is there flaw with any other personality.

This is direct contradiction to what EN seems to be saying in what seems to be a I Win, You Lose punitive strategy of human interaction.

Manipulation, Self-Promotion and Revolution are
Wins for those who instigate them, but
there's nothing preventing a win for your neighbours.

Take a friend, disgusted because he is overweight.
He cannot exercise because he lacks willpower.
You talk to him, and trick him into having willpower.
Now, you influence him to exercise.
In 2 Steps, you've manipulated your friend into a Healty man, and your friend is no longer disgusted.
Win-Win.

The key is iterative manipulation - you manipulate them once so they'll enjoy the next manipulation.
And of course, if they don't enjoy the manipulation, then I wouldn't bother trying.

I don't regard human perception as sacred.
Why should I?
Man is not an island; our thoughts are not a sanctuary.
I intend to exploit this for the benefit of humanity,
and in the process benefit those I exploit.

[Enigma_Nova]

Originally posted by livid imp
How in the hell does "treat others the way you wish to be treated" get turned into "It leads to everyone pushing their beliefs on others" ????

Let us suppose I am homosexual.
Since I enjoy being butt-raped, I butt-rape you on the premise of do unto others.

If I decide I will not steal from you, because I would not like to be stolen from....how did that push a value system on you?

You're working against anyone who values theft, and so push your value system against it.

And if you truly believe that treating others kindly is a way of pushing values on people, then you are completely delusional.

No, you moron. If you think that kindness is universal, then you are completely delusional.
Only by presuming that "What's good for me is good for you", does the do-unto-others philosophy become morally correct.
And, as my homosexuality example proves, What is good for me is not a match to what is good for you.

Oh and I love this one too: "Social diversity collapses, and so too does the society"
Hear that everyone? Thieves, rapists, and murderers aren't bad people, they are just keeping our society "diverse".

Okay, give me a minute to comprehend how dumb you just made yourself sound.

First, you ignore eccentrics, or presume that eccentrics are all Theives/Rapists/Murderers.
Whichever it is, you've just ignored a good part of Society.

Second, ever heard of state-sanctioned Murder?
You're presuming those things are bad for others, and in supporting the do-unto-others argument, you use...
the do-unto-others argument.

Third, consider the effect of Theft and Murder to a society.
So yes, if society had none of these things, it would at least need a reformation - a destruction of the old society.

Fourth, I didn't assert that Thieves/Rapists/Murderers were good people. I asserted they were different people, a diversifying factor.
You presumed it for no logical reason,
but never let logic stand in the way of a good argument.

Fifth, You didn't even address the point:
"Without Social Diversity, Society Collapses."
Oh man, you could have -so- 0wn3d me, since I didn't support that one.
But no, you missed it.

Your ass has been served, livid imp.
If you intend to argue, please know what you're talking about.
Or better yet, go play SMAC. You are not yet worthy of arguing against me.

Apparently, without these vital individuals preying on us all, we would forget to go to work and have children. Artists would have no reason to pursue their art and games just wouldn't be fun anymore.

By a chain of logic only known to livid imp.

Thank god we have omniscient teenagers around....they know everything!

We're not omniscient, we just have good bull**** detectors.

[Commy]

Life on Alpha Centauri, it appears to me, is going to be just as...diverse...as it is here on earth. So apparently humans cannot escape the true horrors of this world, because the true horrors are directly related to us...

[Enigma_Nova]

Originally posted by Hydro
Being aggressive and nasty to people is great fun as long as YOU are the one inflicting the pain.

Depends on the people.
I'd sooner attack a troll like BinTravkin than a gentleman like Darsnan.

EN – perhaps you could console your soul mate? Sadaam could sure use a good shoulder to cry on right now.

An expressionist being the soulmate of the opressive?
Even your emotional arguments are flawed.

Originally posted by smacksim
We need more education because we don't like Pink Floyd

Pink Floyd 0wnz.

'Yes Mr. Jefe, I have a doctorate in pharmokinetics. I did my post-doc work in East LA. I can move the drugs!'

[Hydro]

**Sigh**

More pseudo-intellectual navel gazing.

Your elaborate constructs are the same as those used to justify the actions of Mao in the Cultural Revolution, Stalin in his glorious people’s utopia, the fervent Jim Jones in Ghana, and the inspired David Koresh (formerly of Waco, Texas, before he and his followers burned themselves to a crisp).

Do your opinions make you bad? No, merely amoral. When you act out these theories and suppositions to harm others that will make you immoral. If you are REALLY good at implementing your theories of manipulation and cruelty then you will get the honor of joining the ranks of the fine gentlemen I’ve mentioned above.

I’ve met quite a few people who hold opinions such as yours, and I generally feel sorry for them.

So, friend, we’ll have to agree to disagree.

Hydro

[Zeiter]

...So, how 'bout them drones...

I think it would be kind of cool to be a transcend. To completely leave your body behind and just exist as a brain and spinal column floating in a tank, having no care for physical sensations, and spending your days engaging in philosophical wonderings would be kinda fun. Wasn't that the definition of a transcend, or am I just hallucinating?

[Enigma_Nova]

The Brain in a tank was Clinical Immortality,
or the production of the Bioenhancement centre.

Transcendi are human minds in the fungal nets, or in the data nets - either way works.

Originally posted by Hydro
I’ve met quite a few people who hold opinions such as yours, and I generally feel sorry for them.

So, friend, we’ll have to agree to disagree.

Whatever.
I find no fault with my opinions or personality,
and am immune to any outside suggestion otherwise.
You could always manipulate me into having an internal objection,
but you aren't going to do that.

-Enigma
(Content in his Understanding, or Conceit, or whatever )

[Sikander]

Interesting thread. I find myself in agreement with Smackism in regards to eduction and childhood inflation and the general reasons for it. My parents are excellent examples of the trend away from agriculture. My grandparents were ranchers, and poor for the most part. Both of my parents decided to go to college and break away from the agricultural mold. They did this for several reasons, in order to get away from their rural areas and families, to improve their economic potential, and for the increase in status that being the first person in your family to attend college. My father ended up with a Phd in communications and my mother as an MD.

They were part of an accelerating trend away from the land and into college. Part of the impetus was economic, as traditional scale ranching and farming became unprofitable. Another part of the impetus was social. As farming moved from employing a majority of workers to a plurality to a distinct minority the venerable culture of the farmer gave way as the dominant paradigm to the culture of the employed person. This meant that people who had been members of tightly knit extended family groups no longer worked for their elder relatives, but for supervisors who were no relation. Rather than being tied to family land, workers were free and in many cases forced to move in search of work. This rather rapidly destroyed the extended family as a dominant force in society and ushered in the era of the nuclear family.

The impacts of these changes are still visible today, though the most social dislocation in the US hapened between the end of the 19th century and the latter half of the 20th. Among them are the positive changes such as the emancipation of women (heavily spurred by the labor shortage of WW2), greater opportunities for minority groups and a greater measure of legal justice, and a much brighter outlook for the working class in general as they became the majority rather than being drawn in general from the landless and powerless as had been the case in the past.

The iconoclasm of this period also showed some negative impacts on society, particularly as it reached its zenith in the latter half of the 20th century. Many measures of mental health declined, even as medicine made many improvements in the physical condition of society. A lot of this stemmed from the unforseen or intended consequences of the destruction of the extended family including the emancipation of women. By turning women in many cases into just another worker the impacts upon children in particular were not well understood. As women ceased to be full time parents and refused to be underpaid and underemployed as teachers we saw a huge impact upon the mental health of children as well as a huge drop in their performance in school. This trend has continued for some time and only time will tell when it will be arrested. About the only good thing that can be said about it is that few are unaware of the problem and many are seeking to address it.

Which brings us back around to education. It was once the province of the wealthy at the highest levels especially. Few jobs required a degree, and these jobs were even fewer as a percentage of the whole. Higher education for most was intended to create a well-rounded adult for the most part rather than a technician with a specific skill set. As people moved from less productive employment to more productive employment though they learned that education was often the means by which people of the upper and upper middle classes identified one another, and as such a degree was thought to be a passport to a higher level of society.

So people of the middle and even lower classes began to fixate upon education as the means to wealth and status. The education itself rarely produced much in terms of wealth, but as a badge of status doors were opened that had hitherto remained closed and behind those doors sometimes lay wealth. As was said above, on the job training is much more efficient than general education for producing good workers. But in this society we eat the inefficiency because of the tangible status benefits that education provides. One has to assume that like all mass produced things, education will eventually lose much of its value as a social dick measuring stick as has been already noted above.

All I can say is that I'd much rather hire someone with experience than someone with an education. I don't care about how well someone wrote or downloaded and disguised their papers, or how well they managed to feed their teachers what they wanted to hear. In the vast majority of the working world skills like these will not prove of much value to the enterprise however valuable they might be to the individual.

[Enigma_Nova]

Originally posted by Comrade Tassadar
1. Can you be wrong?

Probably. Otherwise I'd be wasting my time listening to others.
Regardless, pursue your own ideas at all times -
if you are convinced to follow a different idea,
then that idea becomes your own,
and you resume following your own ideas.

WIthout a doubt, you are completly and totally wrong.

At least that's not as wrong as you are.

Do you think you know/can know everything?

I don't know. If I did know everything, I wouldn't be aware of it - because to be aware of the set of all knowledge, makes a set a member of itself...
/me watches the universe break

Enigmas assertion that he's right in everything is...Well, Enigma.

[Hydro]

A few final points:

CT – you are entirely correct: everyone can and probably is mistaken at one point or another. If I suggested otherwise then I was mistaken, or at least the victim of not communicating effectively.

After re-reading my post it is clear that I did not assert that EN’s a Stalinist/Maoist etc. My point is that his stated philosophy, taken to an extreme (as EN is wont to do), is similar to that used by figures of recent history that have been (almost) universally judged as malign, and that have caused great harm to many people. It was meant as a warning against extremism (and the methods used by extremists) and the utter conviction that you are right, and that everyone else is a dolt for disagreeing with you.

[Enigma_Nova]

Originally posted by Hydro
It was meant as a warning against extremism (and the methods used by extremists) and the utter conviction that you are right, and that everyone else is a dolt for disagreeing with you.

So you're not saying I think my opponents are dolts.
Right.

[livid imp]

doh! ignore

[livid imp]

Originally posted by Enigma_Nova
Let us suppose I am homosexual.

I did a long time ago

Originally posted by Enigma_Nova
Since I enjoy being butt-raped

I supposed that one too

Originally posted by Enigma_Nova
I butt-rape you on the premise of do unto others.

Reverse logic. The real question would be one of consent, implied or expressed. Rape is denying a person of their consent, not their taste in sex.

Originally posted by Enigma_Nova
You're working against anyone who values theft, and so push your value system against it.

Ok Dildo Baggins, but we don't live in the land of the Kender. If you live in a 1st world society, you have implied agreement to not steal. If you believe you are above such things, then move to Nigeria where apparently such things are tolerated.

Originally posted by Enigma_Nova
No, you moron.

I thought you were omniscient, can't you come up with a less childish way to insult me. At this rate you'll be calling me 'poopie head' soon.

Originally posted by Enigma_Nova
If you think that kindness is universal, then you are completely delusional.
Only by presuming that "What's good for me is good for you", does the do-unto-others philosophy become morally correct.

You have a problem with over simplification.
"What's good for me is good for you" != "Treat others the way you want to be treated"
They are apples and oranges.

Originally posted by Enigma_Nova
And, as my homosexuality.....

Here you go on about your homosexuality again. Look, I'm flattered, I'm sure you are a good looking guy and all, but I just don't swing that way.

Originally posted by Enigma_Nova
.....example proves, What is good for me is not a match to what is good for you.

Covered already.

Originally posted by Enigma_Nova
Okay, give me a minute to comprehend how dumb you just made yourself sound.

Here you go with the juvenile name calling again....dumb, moron, poopie head.

Originally posted by Enigma_Nova
First, you ignore eccentrics, or presume that eccentrics are all Theives/Rapists/Murderers.
Whichever it is, you've just ignored a good part of Society.

You are the one making presumptions. I never said that eccentrics shouldn't be allowed to be different, so as long as they are not hurting others around them. You seem to assume that I am some kind of Mormon, good guy, cop figure, hell bent on enforcing my idea of the perfect society. (no offense to the Mormons out there) I am VERY far from that. I've been called eccentric quite a few times. I am hell bent on a social revolution, but 'thou shalt not murder/rape/steal' is not something I am looking to change.

Originally posted by Enigma_Nova
Second, ever heard of state-sanctioned Murder?
You're presuming those things are bad for others, and in supporting the do-unto-others argument, you use...
the do-unto-others argument.

I am against the death penalty. (not in theory, but in practice in the US, where far too many innocents are convicted) If you are up for the death penalty then you did something to forfeit your societal protections.

Originally posted by Enigma_Nova
.....Your ass has been served, livid imp.

And you intellect has been betrayed with a comment like that. Do you scrounge up all your oh-so-witty quips from low-brow pop culture references?

Originally posted by Enigma_Nova
If you intend to argue, please know what you're talking about.
Or better yet, go play SMAC. You are not yet worthy of arguing against me.

Wow, I haven't heard such a convincing, witty, high minded argument like that since playing Diablo No wonder people put you on their ignore lists.

Originally posted by Enigma_Nova
We're not omniscient, we just have good bull**** detectors.

Oh the irony

[smacksim]

Originally posted by livid imp
Anyway, it looks like we have push this thread into "intellectual masturbation". I really hate that, so I'm done, see you on the next thread.

That's gross

When I said 'I like to imagine', I was being socratic, not fantasizing.

-S