What is more valuable, ENERGY or MINERALS?

[Jamski]

I don't think we disagree, Jamski...on the contrary, I'm an avid fan of early market, however....Market is only as effective as your early game infrastructure, and with the Morgan example, he's got no spiffy abilities such as a Police bonus to help mitigate Market's police penalty, which means at a minimum, rec commons everywhere before shifting to a Market stance (tho with Morgan, an early Market stance is not absolutely critical in any case, cos he can just run wealth and kick up the 1 energy per square).

I mean really early FM. Before even researching Social Pscyh. There is no need to build Rec Commons, as each base is building only colony pods and rushing the turn they grow to size two (having changed the worker to a doctor the turn previously) The Base Square, being immune to restrictions, is the important tile here, and you can generate an enormous amount of ecs early in the game by only planting bases. The sole aim is to get to Ind Auto first, because in my expericence this is often a major factor in deciding a game. Of course against the AI its not really an issue

But to *get* to that early Market stance, a short trip to Planned to help get the early infrastructure in place across the board can really make the difference....Planned/Wealth is even better in that regard. An excellent transitional model for three reasons: 20% cheaper crawlers in preparation for a big productivity spike, faster, cheaper early infrastructure at a time when you're sorely punished by restrictions, and in a tight race for SP's (especially if you're rabid about getting all of them!), that extra nudge can really make the difference.

Perhaps - but if you're spending on the edge, the ec cost of just one turn spent in Planned, and not in FM, is huge - not to mention the cost of actually changing - those 40ecs could have rushed a colony pod 4 turns faster for example. In FM the ability to rush EVERYTHING to completion more than compensates for the -10% cost of Planned.

-Jam

[Ogie Oglethorpe]

Originally posted by Velociryx
I don't think we disagree, Jamski...on the contrary, I'm an avid fan of early market, however....Market is only as effective as your early game infrastructure, and with the Morgan example, he's got no spiffy abilities such as a Police bonus to help mitigate Market's police penalty, which means at a minimum, rec commons everywhere before shifting to a Market stance (tho with Morgan, an early Market stance is not absolutely critical in any case, cos he can just run wealth and kick up the 1 energy per square).

But to *get* to that early Market stance, a short trip to Planned to help get the early infrastructure in place across the board can really make the difference....Planned/Wealth is even better in that regard. An excellent transitional model for three reasons: 20% cheaper crawlers in preparation for a big productivity spike, faster, cheaper early infrastructure at a time when you're sorely punished by restrictions, and in a tight race for SP's (especially if you're rabid about getting all of them!), that extra nudge can really make the difference.

-=Vel=-

I gotta agree with Jam on this one Vel. Early as possible switch to FM outdoes planned IMO saving the fact that it casues you to turtle. You plow through to IA much faster than planned. Rush buying colony pods and doctoring citizens where required. Key is making sure you have 2 nutrient squares to rely on to allow doctoring a citizen if required.

Once IA is attained, Market also allows that earlier fungal pop as eco damage is higher than if running planned.

FM for Morgie is killer as soon as possible. Check out
here

[AndiD]

And regarding turtle status, send synth probe teams out as scouts (speeder, later foils) to pop pods. While running Wealth they have higher morale than everything else you can crank out, you get Speeder chassis even when not having researched Mobility, they don't cost support or even drones, synth armor mitigates the -50% non-combat bonus even in psi and if you find your opponents the AI doesn't complain about your units violating their territory and you can immediately infiltrate them...

(Boy, that sounds so good, I have to use them more regularly )

Of course they are somewhat expensive but you can rush them with your cash and with the first resupply or materials pod you have the invested cash or the turns back in, respectively.

[Commy]

I'm with Jamski too. First tech I always get is industrial economics so I can immediately switch to free market. Sometimes, you're tech rate can be halved early on, and your income doubled, and you're only at the year 2120.

[CEO Aaron]

I, of course, am also a huge fan of early FM for any faction that can take it. Don't poo-poo the extra energy per square and base square energy, because when you're under 3 population, that winds up _doubling_ your energy income or more. Doubling your energy doubles your tech rate, and doubles your rush-buying capital, and surely Vel can tell you about the huge merits of rush-buying for turn-advantage.

To be sure, there's a sacrifice involved once your bureaucracy limit kicks in, but the idea is that once you're rush buying commons when you plant your bases, you'll already be far ahead of your competition in terms of expansion and production capacity. And what's more, with your accelerated tech rate, IA is just around the corner, and with it comes a fast grab for SPs and a quick boost in mineral output shortly thereafter.

[Santiago_Claus]

Minerals are more valuable but have an extremely diminished marginal utility. Energy has no point of marginal utility.

Energy is thus my long-term goal, but minerals are the gateway to energy: you can build your way out of an energy deficit, but it is much more difficult to buy your way out of a mineral deficit.

Mineral production is like air: it won't make you rich, but you'll die without it.

Free Market vs. Planned ... I used to be a Market zealot, but Planned amplifies the industry bonus of Wealth to such a degree I just can't pass it up. Add to that pop booming, fungus trolling, police, and the Longevity Vaccine's double effectiveness and Planned is a no-brainer for much of the early-mid game.

On the other hand I've recently switched from all-Morgan all the time to Zak, whose speedy research requires fast infrastructure-building to match. I can see why CyCon is so popular.

[GeoModder]

They have to lay thumbs down in present ACDG. Outproduced darn it!!

[Velociryx]

Ahhh, having read the latest, I see where the difference lies.

Yes, under an extreme ICS approach, the uber-early FM stance will net you significant early game energy, and hasten your arrival at crawlers, 'tis true.

However, in a standard game, one can usually reach crawlers in the 20's (30's at the outset)--this is directed research, not blind, obviously, and until you've got a decent number of bases up and running, then you don't really have enough bases to grab a meaningful amount of energy or anything else for that matter.

Planned's combination of growth and industry will get you bases fast to get into position for the very thing Master Jamski's talking about....

-=Vel=-

[Jamski]

We should try a direct comparison on a "rigged" map with a "null faction".

It's the only way to be sure.

-Jam

[Enigma_Nova]

Pods make the difference.
If it's a podless map, consider going FM.
If it's got pods, Planned's the go.
Rapid pod popping can skyrocket you up the leaderboard.

Once Wealth is in, going FM is more attractive. The Credits are there to rush your commons, and the crawlers can scout for base sites.

[Sikander]

I use both approaches, depending on the context of the faction played and the type of game etc. Ogie turned me on to early FM and it is a powerhouse. I used to be a Planned only zealot, but they both have their place. I suppose these days I go FM before Planned more often than not though. Playing the Peacekeepers is great for early FM, as they don't have to worry about anything but the worms until they reach size 3.

Interestingly, in games where I'm using a lot of specialists I tend to run Planned a lot in the mid-game and later. It doesn't tend to have much of an impact on my energy production while the Industry is great, the B-drones (or any drones) aren't a problem and I can perpetually pop-boom.

[Ogie Oglethorpe]

EN makes a valid point regarding pods. This is what I alluded to wrt the downside of turtling.

While AndiD explains a work around (namely armored probes) they realistically are not going to be manufacutred as the inital thrust of a strictly FM initial expansion is to churn out a colony pod (by rush buyin if need be) by the time you hit size 2. This consumes a great deal of the energy. Likewise you want to make sure you bank roll 40 Ecs (transcend) for immediate switch to Wealth when IA is obtained.

Vel,

teh paradigm I layed out was an initial ICS no doubt. I purposely chose not to talk about the transition to mid-early game. The initial FM ICS I have found to be on average the most consistent means of powering through the early game to IA and thus creating massive turn advantage assuming of course there are no immediate threats.

[binTravkin]

Even WITH immediate threats FM ICS is the best early-game option!
If you are defending your territory, you dont receive any pacifism drones

as well as mid & late game..

&if you ask - what about D:AP?
Then I answer - when you get D:AP, its mid-game as D:AP changes military gameplay enormously!

&even then - just advance further to MMI & you have solved the pacifism problem

Only BIG threat to ICS is PBs
But if you are only one to ICS, youre the 1st to get PBs!

[Frankychan]

I would have to say that minerals are more important. However, later in the game in a protracted Vendetta, Energy is almost always more valuable. (Bribing units).

Personally, I detest FM. The negatives are too much compared to its benefits IMHO. But then again, I usually have ecodamage anyway and tend to size a large military.

It's not fun when you have to deal with 35+ Demon Boils when you're running Planned. I would hate to see how much I would get if I'm running FM.

[Frankychan]

Originally posted by binTravkin
Even WITH immediate threats FM ICS is the best early-game option!
If you are defending your territory, you dont receive any pacifism drones

as well as mid & late game..

&if you ask - what about D:AP?
Then I answer - when you get D:AP, its mid-game as D:AP changes military gameplay enormously!

&even then - just advance further to MMI & you have solved the pacifism problem

Only BIG threat to ICS is PBs
But if you are only one to ICS, youre the 1st to get PBs!

I've said this once, but I have to state it again. One time when I did ICS, I was hit by a Believer Planet Buster and lost every single SP I built, and most of my bases. I think I had maybe 2 or 3 bases left over. But were quickly taken over.

Ever since then, I do a East Coast-West Coast type of ICS'ing. That way, if one gets taken out, I still have another one to continue the fight.