Energy Credits (upkeep and other issues)

[ChairmanSlick]

Hi,

I was just wondering about upkeep. What is your take on the subject?

I feel that i do not generally let it dictate what facilities i am going to buy. However, i do believe that it affects which SP's i go for. For instance, i think that Virtual World, and Cyborg Factory and the best two SP's in the game.

If you get it then thats -7 upkeep per city (i think)...

lets say u have 11 cities that -77 upkeep.
Lets say ur @ about 2170 -- u'd be looking in an average game to be making (with an average builder faction) around 250 ec's i reckon. (just a guess...) Oh and this is before upkeep is taken out. Thus, if u can shed that -77 upkeep cost then thats a lot of money u can spend on rover supplies for those up and coming projects or tree farms or research hospitals etc.


Also, do u guys usually keep a safety net of Ec's in ur bank for incase someone attacks u-- Personally i keep local probes and around 500-1000 ec's (during the middle of the game) in my bank as defense so to rush units and subvert units...

I'm curious how people use there energy credits generally...

Also = do u guys lend money to the AI factions?

Do u buy technologies?

Thanks for ur input:

[Jamski]

I spend almost all my money every turn on mini-rushes. The faster you get stuff built the better, that's my motto. I may have a reserve of 50-100 ecs in the mid game onwards.

The AI's never get a loan. Never. The cash is better used yourself - in fact its always a good deal to borrow money from the AI and use it yourself. Simply rushing a few Energy Banks puts you in the profit zone already.

Spend, spend, spend - that's the way to victory.

-Jam

[Santiago_Claus]

I'm with the Green God on this one: EC's represent build-points you've already earned, waiting for a decision on where to spend them.

However, I do keep a reserve large enough (~120) to upgrade a Rover Supply Crawler into a "Porkbarrel", which I then spend on SP's.

I used to cash in Artifacts to get the early SP's, incidentally, but beelining to IA works so much better ... thanks, Jamski!

CmnSlick (and Vel's guide) advise a reserve for probe operations, but one can generally forsee such costs and save up for them on a case-by-case basis, rather than keep a big chunk of your assets permanently frozen "just in case".

[CEO Aaron]

EC's are worth more than just minerals. They're worth TIME, allowing you to shorten your build times and get a jump on your competition. Credits in the bank are potential energy to be sure, but they're also wasted time. The cost of stockpiling energy is the other things you could have built with those credits, as well as the other things your bases could have been building once the first things were finished.

In short, my stockpiles tend to be very minimal, unless I'm actively in a shooting war, at which point they'll spike until the conflict is resolved. If I get caught with my pants down, I can always sell off a couple of facilities for some quick cash. Efficient? Maybe not, but it's more efficent than keeping more than 200 ECs in your bank account.

However, I do keep a reserve large enough (~120) to upgrade a Rover Supply Crawler into a "Porkbarrel", which I then spend on SP's.

This is an illusory economy, especially in the early period. Yes, if you view your EC expenditure solely in terms of minerals per EC, upgrading crawlers is less expensive. However, rushing crawlers not only gets you the crawler itself, but gets started building the next one sooner. And if you can put the first crawler to work before you cash it in, you also get the minerals it's crawling while you're waiting for enough crawlers to one-turn your project. Finally, if you rush your crawlers sooner, you'll have the project you're trying to finish quicker.

Still don't believe me? Try it yourself. Start a game with your favorite faction. Beeline for IA. Save the game the turn you get your tech. Now try one game where you upgrade the crawlers you build, and load the game over and try rushing the crawlers after they've accumulated 10+ minerals, and putting them to work on their way to being cashed in. Compare how long it takes you to finish all the available projects, and you'll see which is a better use of your credits.

[ChairmanSlick]

I think i disagree.. Generally I rush formers/scout patrols/crawlers when they have 2 to 3 turns to go so to make it only 1 turn to go...

AND i rush rec. centers in the same terms.. but it still leaves me with a profit... (maybe i'm just incredibly efficient)


I find that sometimes when i have my crawlers up.. i prefer to just build it since it will be only another few turn until i can actually (BUILD) the facility in question as opposed to rushing it. The logic behind this is so to 'save' this energy that u would have potentially spend... and usually i spend it on tree farms. These can be expensive. Potentially costing u over 120ec's to rush build. And when u have quite a few cities at this point (around 12 or something) then thats a lot of ec's. Thus the potential for profit here is more than what u would gain having rushed those other facilities. This is mainly just because of the extraordinary quality of the tree farm facility. but my argument remains.

[ChairmanSlick]

oh and also.. i tend to find myself beelining for the Planetary energy grid... and i'm a firm believer of early tree farms. so this leaves me with a large source of income. thus sometimes it just seems that i can't avoid running a profit. When ur in a situation like this... what do YOU do CEO Aaron'; with this extra cash??
--very curious

[Sikander]

As usual the it depends argument is a good one. Last night I started a game on a 256x256 map as the Hive. I've built the WP, the HGP, the CN, and the VW and every base has recycling tanks, network node, energy bank and two formers and two garrison troops. I really just don't have much to build, so I'm building Ecs in most of my bases except the newer ones. To be sure as my formers create land I'm running colony pods over to take advantage of it, but tech progress is slow as I'm the Hive and the map is gigantic. I suppose I could build lots of probe teams, but with one in every base and my nearest opponent who knows how far away what's the point? I could build up a crappy AI style military, but again what's the point? As the Hive tends to be weak monetarily I'd rather build money so that as technologies come on line I can rush them.

Also, against the AI having a decent rainy day fund can save a lot of money / effort in the long run. A few probe teams and 100+ Ecs in the bank can obviate the need for support gobbling troops.

[Santiago_Claus]

CEO Aaron, I took what you said to heart and put it on the spreadsheet to see just what kind of economy I was getting from crawler upgrades.

My results show that as long as you upgrade ONLY special abilities that you'll run roughly 2 ec's per production point, depending on industry rating.

Case-in-point: Xfer_5 (supply crawler w/ 1 ability, cost 5 rows) upgraded to Porkbarrel (supply crawler w/ 4 abilities, cost 11 rows) costs 110 and adds 6 rows. 110 / (6 * (industry rating)) gives unit cost.

Unit cost depends on industry rating:
11: 1.666667
10: 1.833333
9: 2.037037
8: 2.291667
7: 2.619048

A unit cost of 2.29 is roughly equivalent to the rush-build unit cost of a crawler with 10 minerals remaining. At industry rating 7, unit cost 2.62, the break-even is at 16.

Upgrading seems to me to be much cheaper unless your industry rating is 7 or better.

[Jamski]

/me punches the air!*

I knew it!

-Jam

[CEO Aaron]

Santi, your math leaves out the most important aspect of the equation, speed. Rushing allows you to build crawlers faster, and putting those crawlers to work while you wait to turn them in will garner you still more minerals. Like I said before, try it both ways and see which gets all your projects done faster.

[Commy]

I'm new to this thread, but regardless of what other people have said, I'm going with CEO Aaron. One reason energy is so much better than minerals is because it diminishes speed. If I need a military unit so my base isn't taken, I want it now. If I need a crawler to crawl 7 minerals to my base because my economy is needed for other things, and I want a SP, then I want the crawler now, not 3 turns from now.

So if I want to upgrade a crawler so it can get to work immediately, and have a special ability, energy is the way to go.

[Chaos Theory]

Post-fusion, crawler upgrade costs are a little above 1 ec/mineral, for speeder crawlers and at that point upgrading is definitely the way to go.

[Santiago_Claus]

CEO Aaron, the "time advantage" you're getting is actually trading later completion time of an SP for use of the constituent crawlers in the interim.

You're also making a case that 3 crawlers are better than 1 porker, but again that's assuming you'd rather delay the SP to gain more production. If you're completing the SP the turn after the upgrade, you gain no advantage.

I've grappled with the issue of opportunity cost myself: in the very early game, I'd much rather get 2 minerals per turn from a supply crawler than burn it on an SP, so I try to saturate my territory with crawlers then build more still to cash in. I don't want to "eat my seed corn" so to speak.

When competing with the AI, though, one of course doesn't always have that luxury. Under those circumstances you're better off upgrading and cashing in whilst building more crawlers instead of burning off a larger number of un-upgraded ones then trying to buy their replacements.

[Velociryx]

It all depends on your style...and of course, when you grab the spiffy smax project giving you freebie energy banks, you also grab the ability to start earning interest on the money.

That's MORE free money, and MORE free rushing by saving a bit in advance, and that's what keeps the wealthy in this country....really wealthy...

-=Vel=-

[Velociryx]

edit to the above - of course, I play lossa tech stag/blind research games, and tend to have time to kill....that too, makes a huge difference.

There are times when I've rushed everything I need, and to build more of a given thing just because I can is....inefficient, especially if I'm planning an expensive probe dance.

The marginal utility of another crawler vs. the ability to save up for a base subversion to give me a toehold on a juicy continent that's ripe for conquest...

-=Vel=-