High maintainess facilities

[Jamski]

This is still my favorite SMAC story ever. Wasn't it that it took 2 days to PLAN the turn, to see if it could be done in one turn with the available formers?

-Jam

[Mongoose]

Error in the discussion on TreeFarms -

"Like Research Hospitals, they boost income by 50%..."


This is UNLIKE Hospitals, which have no income effect. Fusion Labs and Quantum Labs are the science facilities that also increase ECONOMY.

[Hydro]

For the record:

Research hospital - increase psych by 25%, increase labs by 50%, decrease drones by 1, reduce pop loss due to genetic warfare, cost 120, maint 3

Tree farm - increase psych by 50%, increase economy by 50%, increase forest nut by 1, elim half of terraforming eco damage, cost 120, maint 3

Hybrid forest - increase energy and neut in forest by 1, increase psych and eco by 50%, w/tree farm eliminates terraforming eco damage (cumulative w/tree farm), cost 240, maint 4

[Sikander]

I find Yang a great candidate for specialists with borehole and condensor / farm forming. It reduces your loss from inefficiency, reduces the possible number of drones and allows bases to be specialized as well. Consider perhaps that some bases will be geared toward ECs and others toward Labs and build infrastructure accordingly. Obviously Lab heavy bases will be chock full of Librarians while EC heavy bases will be heavy on the Technicians.

Use pod booming to rack up large numbers of specialists in your core bases while other bases are crawling minerals and only producing colony pods. This will also maximize the value of your facilities as well as your population. Use gang forming to transform your more developed bases quickly.

[Jamski]

Error in the discussion on TreeFarms -

"Like Research Hospitals, they boost income by 50%..."

Income, not Econ.

Hospitals boost Labs income by 50%, Treefarms do the same for Econ and Psych.

Sorry if that's unclear. I use income to refer to all 3 the direct 1-to-1 Energy applications.

Hydro - I'd say the basic problem with your setup is the lack of bases. I just read again through your commentary above, and, well... personally I think you have about a third to a quarter of the bases I'd need at this stage of the game.

Of course with that many bases the game is over by 2200ish as everyone drowns under your immense waves of troops. 30+ new Missile Copters every turn makes it an exercise in mopping up.

I appreciate that some people like to play Yang as a hybrid, but really I think this is underusing his talents, and Dee or Santi can do this better. Where Yang shines is in "iron steamrollering" the opposition.

-Jam

[johndmuller]

I play Chairman Yang a lot, and nearly always in some sort of Hybrid mode where I do a lot of the builder things. At the beginning of the game, I make a point of keeping a good bit of my focus on Energy, since it is a weakness that can spread a malaise on both your economic and research sectors. Rivers are major resources to the Hive in the early game, and I am also not above doing the farm-solar thing on a rolling moist tile as low as the 1000m category, or even sometimes the below 1000 category if I want the 2 nuts tile bad enough (and you do want to keep your bases growing as fast as possible to make up for probably not being able to pop boom very much, if at all).

Hydro, assuming that you are running Police, you could have as many as 3 police (with non-lethal) units in a base, which would control 6 drones, not just the 3 that you say maxes your cops out. I would normally use fewer than that in favor of some specialists once there was IA to crawl some nuts, but in any case, if you've got the IntelInteg, it should be no problem to get bases up to size 6 with only Cops and a RecComm.

My Hive obsession with Energy extends to building the basic EBank and NetNode facilities (From the point of view of the Hive's income levels, even these facilities are 'High Maintenance') when they are only marginally worth it and of course the Recyc tanks as soon as I am able to get around to acquiring the tech (the techs for the other 2 of course being on the IA beeline).

While your thinking about facilities, entertain the possibility of going for the VW; those free Holos will definitely get you in the mood to build NetNodes. OTOH, the HGP is pretty important if you want to make the most of what little pop booming youi can do short of the CV, but even with the HGP, it won't be long before the number of bases gets too high to make thnking about GA booms more than an academic issue (an if you didn't get the VW, you may not have bothered with the NetNodes, and therefore academic stuff will be of no interest).

Running Wealth is another reasonable thing to do in the early game (if you can still call post-IA the early game); I know it doesn't seem very like the Chairman to do Wealth, but you know, they aren't the Spartans, after all. As long as you are not in a war, the morale hit is not too important and the extra energy in each base comes in pretty handy - the lopping off of yet another column in the build box is hardly necessary, but welcome nonetheless. Wealth will also encourage you to build Creches to mitigate some of the morale hit, which of course will also be very good for gwowth.

It is possible to do a lot of building without interfering much with your expansion. Once there are 7 or 8 bases, some of the interior bases can work on growth and infrastructure, while the newer outer bases take care of CP production; soon they will no longer be outer bases and they can take their turn doing growth and infrastructure. Certainly this will stunt your expansion somewhat, but your population will still be growing in the interior bases, just slower. Taking CPs out from your interior bases is a little inefficient also, as they waste several turns getting to their sites.

If I've gotten to where there are bases bumping up against the ecodamage threshholds before EnvironEcon has appeared, it might be a good tiime to build ResHospitals, as the min production is there, and the extra drone control could probably convert a doctor into a specialist. With a lot of lab facilities and an good energy production, the Chairman can keep up with other Human players in the research race provided they not making a major point of boosting their own research.

Sometimes the tradeoff is between a ResHospital and a Holo. They both have the nasty 3 maint cost, but the Holo costs only half as much to build; it also gives twice as much drone control, but neither of those factors are such big deals to Yang, so getting the research boost, while still getting at least some drone benefits make the RHosps more my cup of tea when playing the Hive at least.

[Hydro]

JM, HongHu, Sik, and Jam – I really do appreciate the advice so I can shift my Hive mindset. One of the great things about SMAX is that it does require different strategies, which are difficult for some of us (e.g. – me) to digest. A couple of questions:

# of bases – If I build tons of bases I’ll end up with a lot more b-drones and inefficiency (bases away from my capital/core) drones. Right now new bases with PTS (size 3) are all drones, which is offset by one from the effects of PTS and two police (1 if it has NLM) and HGP. Each new base also generates drones in existing bases, which will make these bases more and more unstable. So, if I build pods to double the # of bases (to ~30) I can expect new bases to need at least 2 police units (after PTS and HGP) since I’ll probably have double-drones, and at least one more drone at each existing bases. Right? Put in that context that doesn’t sound that bad, up to a point.

[Note – what is interesting it that this is much different from a Large Builder Empire faction with high efficiency. I’m used to Dee with +6 efficiency overall (+2 faction/+2 dem/+2 green), and +8 (which crèche) at any given base. Very large empires can be sustained with ease. This is not true for Yang with 0 efficiency, but Yang’s police state simply shifts how the Empire is administered.]

Support – one of the Hive’s biggest advantages with PS is the extra support, which allows more terraformers and huge armies that don’t burden industrial production. With tons of bases, aren’t these support slots taken up by police/garrison units, mitigating the Yang Horde?

NLM – I thought that non-lethal methods is only effective on one garrison per base, meaning that with a police rating of 2 you can have 3 garrisons to control 3 drones, and one more drone control with NLM (I miss-spoke earlier). If I can control 6 drones with 3 garrisons each with NLM that would be huge! This means I can effectively build as many bases as I want without significant fear of drones running riot. It’ll test this.

VW – the PKs got this, but I did get HGP and WP. Having a marginal tech rate has its problems, especially since we’re using non-directed research.

Energy – rivers are always key for any faction, and I’ve drilled to aquifer after I got WP to goose energy in my forests a bit. Energy specials are also key. This is where Wealth kicks in, since it gives each base 1 more energy, which for the Hive is a real kick for smallish bases (size 1 bases frequently produce no energy at all). RTs are key early facilities to goose energy at size 1 and 2 bases. With bigger bases Wealth may not be as important if there is adequate terraforming.

Crawlers – I’m harvesting mins to at or just above eco damage levels, then crawlering food where I can. Flat rainy tiles are good for this, I’ve found, for the Hive before TFs. Heck, one size 8 base has 12 surplus food/turn w/o TFs, yielding explosive growth. Only the capital The Hive is crawlering energy in forests, but this is to protect the base from sea assault since these bases are by the coast (an no one has amphib yet).

Facilities – Ebanks are medium to low priority for me since with my economy the 1 maint may not pay for itself. I also may get Planetary Energy Grid, so I hate to build EBs when I may get them for free. My priority list (in order) is: small bases RT; medium bases (size 4+) RC and Crèche and maybe NN if has good energy; large bases (size 5+) NN; primary bases (size 7+) RH, maybe Holo and EB. Obviously, this is Hybrid bordering on Builder.

Specialists – I’m a novice here, and although I’ve experimented I’ve typically have only used for drone control. I’ll rectify this immediately since this may allow me to bump lab output where my research is good (eg – have NN and RH) when crawlering food.

PopBoom – I’ve tried goosing my energy allocation to up to 20% Psych, and have managed a mini-pop boom at two bases from size 4 to 5 when using 2 doctors. Obviously, this only works when there are lots of extra nutrients. This may work better when my base psych is better (TFs and maybe RH). Considering my energy income, 10 or 20% Psych can’t be maintained very long.

PodBoom – I’ve done this a few times at critical bases (The Hive), but it seems like a large investment for relatively little gain.

Attitude – I’m not a Blood-Makes-Grass-Grow (*Hey! This could be an ecologically sensitive Gaian position!*) type of person, so this will take some work. I’ve approached this game as a hybrid with the philosophy that Yang (ever thoughtful, if amoral) will do what is necessary to make sure humanity survives, using his vision of the future, of course. Being initially isolated going to a war footing was wasteful and inefficient. But, as technology and resources improve this is no longer true, requiring a dramatic shift in priorities (as is appropriate for a hybrid).

Again, thanks MUCH for all the advice. I will experiment with all these great ideas.

Hydro

P.S. – HongHu – sorry for hijacking your thread. Hope you don’t mind…to much.

[Jamski]

Hydro - a simple but effective trick is to build 1-1-1(police) units and send them to base sites ahead of time. Then when the base is built it has auto Drone quelling of 3 (PTS and police) and the extra talent from the HGP. Even wih heavy ineffiecency the base will do ok. The trick is to have the police unit ready before time.

Crawled nuts will let you make doctors without worries, or other specialists. I think the Hive is the faction with the least problems with Drone control throughout the game. Good police, best benefits from the LV, can nervestaple early game and stay "in character"

-Jam

[Snowflake]

One thing about pop booming and pod booming. I found it pretty hard to pop boom for Yang. In early stage it may do so through golden age, but when you get to mid stage you really can't rely upon this. This of couse makes the perm pop booming SP (forgot the name) a must for you.

However, if you've got PTS, I don't see pop growing to be a too big of a problem. You simply expand, and expand. The real problem is that you only have 3 pop when you set up your new base. Even with farm/condensors it needs some time to grow to size 5 where you could utilize specialist. Pop factory is a very good idea for you I think. Make one or two boreholes and a farm/condensor around this factory, put 2 workers on boreholes and 1 on farm to support the 3 pop. Then you'd be able to pop out 1 colony pod every turn with a full rush every time. You send the colony pod to the bases where pop size is 4 to make it 5. You can help two bases every 3 turns this way since the third turn you'll have to rebuild your factory.

ps. I don't mind your "threadjacking" at all. This kind of discussions benefit us all.

[Googlie]

Just as an aside, an often overlooked maintenance feature lies with the Command Center. It's costs increase with the availability of better level reactors.

(Equal to the reactor level, but never more than 1/2 DIFF rounded up)

So, at Transcend level, the Command Center costs:

1 if only fission available
2 when Fusion becomes available
3 for Quantum or higher

We (I, at least) often ignore trying for the Command Nexus, but if playing a game likely to last a few hundred years it soon pays for itself

G.

[Hydro]

Goog - My Hive built CN, which counteracts Wealth nicely. I'm REALLY glad I don't have to build CCs, or my economy would really be hosed. I'd likely have to build one or two and then take the hit on lower morale troopers (making up in sheer volume what I lack in quality - which is opposite of the Spartans).

I've heard the maintenance cost increases, but by the time that part of the game rolls around I usually don't notice. Or, I'm pleased to capture it from some other undeserving faction and am thrilled to sell off my strategically build Command Centers, saving ECs and generating a nice windfall.

Hydro

[Sikander]

Oh, and thanks HongHu for the thread title. I'm going to start calling my girlfriend "Your High Maintainess". When she asks me to do something I'll answer, "Yes Your High Mainteness" etc.

[Enigma_Nova]

Finally, Sikander has an idea I can use.

[Hydro]

A few postscripts:

Specialists: Librarians made a HUGE difference in my research rates, particularly where there was a good multiplier effect from NNs and RHs! Just using a few boosted research by 10 percent, and with a little aggressive food crawlering this could go up even more. As I mentioned, I never got much benefit in other games (primarily as Dee), but when no energy is lost and existing labs are multiplied this is huge.

Energy Allocation: I switched back to 50-50, and an energy deficit is no longer a problem. Science didn’t drop that much. The key is that the inefficiency loss become more critical as there is more energy to lose, so low efficiency factions can realistically only use this with minimal loss early in the game (Gaians and Cyborgs or factions with high SE-based efficiency can and should use this aggressively the whole game)

Drones: Founding a single new base is causing multiple drones in multiple bases. I’ll have to dig up threads on this. I recall there was one posted in the last month or so. If this is true then there is a huge diminishing returns with extra bases (I got my second efficiency warning at 20 bases; does this cause 2 drones per new base?)

Police and NLM: YES, NLM can be used with every police unit. Using PS and having 3 garrisons w/NLM controls 6 drones! WOW! I was so thrilled to find this that I almost scrapped the few holo generators I have built. But, then these are only at large bases, an it frees up units to do other things.

Terraforming: I’ve now decided that after nutrient restrictions are lifted and crawlers are available that flat rainy tiles should have farms. Yes, forests are nice, but 3+ neuts is much better. As long as the bases aren’t really close this is a good deal since there are plenty of tiles to harvest.

Again, thanks for all the good advice…

Hydro

[Maniac]

Originally posted by Hydro
Drones: Founding a single new base is causing multiple drones in multiple bases.

Unless you're using psych to quell your drones, which seems unlikely with the Hive, or unless you still have the possibility to popboom with Golden Ages, which is no longer possible in your game IIRC, do extra b-drones really matter? Police and drone facilities are just as effective in making normal drones and superdrones into workers. It's only when using psych that superdrones first need to be converted to normal drones before being converted to workers.

Btw, who is the Spartan opponent in your game? Someone of this forum?