Symmetry and Asymmetry in Civ-style Games

[Locutus]

On episode 8 of Three Moves Ahead, a strategy gaming podcast by Troy Goodfellow (known from the Chronicles of Civilization booklet in Civilization Chronicles), Tom Chick, Bruce Geryk (known from the Tom vs Bruce features in CGW back in the day) and Julian Murdoch, the hosts talk in depth about symmetry and asymmetry in game design and how it affects gameplay. They cite Civilization IV, Rise of Nations, Alpha Centauri and Fall from Heaven (among others) as examples and discuss how symmetry affects those games. It's a fascinating discussion that I think anyone who enjoys PolyCast or ModCast would enjoy listening to -- and probably other people too.

You can download the 55-minute episode from Troy Goodfellow's blog, Flash of Steel.

[ruff_hi]

I listened to this ... did they say that Civ4 was asymmetrical? At a high level, civ4 is obviously asymmetrical (each leader is different, each civ has its own UU and UB, starting positions are different, etc). However, at a micro level, civ4 is very symmetrical (start a worker, research a food technology, irrigate or pasture, road to improve health and speed of units).

My typical game now is random leader (and random map type) and I spend most of my first turn thinking how I can maximize my strengths (dare I say ... 'exploit') the leader that I am (instead of thinking about what to build, research).

It was an interesting discussion but it tended to degrade into a general discussion about various games, the fast majority I had not heard of, let alone played.

BTW: symmetrical means that each player has exactly the same information, available moves and opportunity to move. Prime example of symmetrical was rock / paper / scissors. Another example is chess (apart from white moving first).

[Grandpa Troll]

On episode 8 of Three Moves Ahead, a strategy gaming podcast by Troy Goodfellow (known from the Chronicles of Civilization booklet in Civilization Chronicles), Tom Chick, Bruce Geryk (known from the Tom vs Bruce features in CGW back in the day) and Julian Murdoch, the hosts talk in depth about symmetry and asymmetry in game design and how it affects gameplay. They cite Civilization IV, Rise of Nations, Alpha Centauri and Fall from Heaven (among others) as examples and discuss how symmetry affects those games. It's a fascinating discussion that I think anyone who enjoys PolyCast or ModCast would enjoy listening to -- and probably other people too.

You can download the 55-minute episode from Troy Goodfellow's blog, Flash of Steel.

Thanks Locutus

I am looking forward, hope it helps me better understand how the greats suceed, if nothing else, your seal of approval warrants time assigned researching this opinion to see how if faires against a blue collar player

[Locutus]

I listened to this ... did they say that Civ4 was asymmetrical?

I think they more or less came to the consensus that technically Civilization is assymetrical (as is virtually every other game), but in reality it's more like symmetrical but 'with variations on a theme'. So pretty much exactly what you said as well.

My typical game now is random leader (and random map type) and I spend most of my first turn thinking how I can maximize my strengths (dare I say ... 'exploit') the leader that I am (instead of thinking about what to build, research).

Yes, the same for me. I was very much opposed to the asymmetrical elements that started to be introduced in Civ3 for a long time, but have eventually grown to appreciate them in Civ4, and they are at the heart of my gameplay style now. Still, all things are good in moderation, I don't know that I'd need Civ5 to be Fall from Heaven with historic civs...

It was an interesting discussion but it tended to degrade into a general discussion about various games, the fast majority I had not heard of, let alone played.

Well, it's not a Civ podcast, it's a strategy gaming podcast. At least most of the stuff in this week's episode was video game related, they've been known to divert into board game, card game, D&D, etc discussions I thought it was still interesting for a Civ audience despite that, as a good portion of the focus was on Civ or Civ-like games. Wouldn't have posted it otherwise. Fair point though.


GT,
It's more a game design than a game strategy discussion, and a high-level discussion at that. Still, you may find it interesting and pick up some points for your next mod (if you're still doing that).

[Grandpa Troll]

GT,
It's more a game design than a game strategy discussion, and a high-level discussion at that. Still, you may find it interesting and pick up some points for your next mod (if you're still doing that).

Thanks Locutus

[Supr49er]

An interesting listen. Many many games I have never played, much less heard of.

[Murg]

I don't know that I'd need Civ5 to be Fall from Heaven with historic civs...

I think that would be a lot of fun. But at the end of the day I don't think it would really be Civ anymore.

[Locutus]

I agree. I'd play it as a mod though *hint* *hint*