I am starting to feel sorry for Apolyton.

[Solver]

You may be right on the first point but not the second. There's no arguing that an upgrade is much overdue. We are essentially running on 2001 technology right now, with a few additions here and there, and have a 2001 forum layout, only uglier. So of course the upgrade is long overdue but what's the point, in this case, of complaining about what we hadn't done back when? I don't know if we will again reach the status we had but we certainly won't if we don't upgrade.

You see, our traffic numbers aren't bad at all. The amount of people registering on the forums is still respectable. The problem is that people don't stay on the site and that is largely because of how outdated our presentation is.

As for management being at fault, I don't see how that might be the case. Sure, management hasn't always been perfect, as I'm sure anyone in the administration would agree, but it has never been an obstacle to upgrade efforts, quite on the contrary. Our internal organization is fine. We have a good overall plan on what we want to do with the forum and the site, we have the forum upgrade broken down into separate tasks and prioritized appropriately, all of that is good. And ever since this administration took over there hasn't been a lack of desire to upgrade. When almost the entire backend for the forum upgrade is taken care of by one person, who has very little time to spare on it, how is that a leadership problem instead of a manpower problem? We are indeed not completely incompetent - for instance, if Gramphos could work on the site full-time, you would've had a new forum months ago.

[Nikolai]

Use some of your Swiss PolyPLUS money to pay him full time.

[Solver]

Do you volunteer to donate some to our modest budget? I think selling Knerten to ah... uh... restaurant might help us some

[DrSpike]

Originally posted by Solver
what's the point, in this case, of complaining about what we hadn't done back when?

I didn't see any of that.

Originally posted by Solver
I don't know if we will again reach the status we had but we certainly won't if we don't upgrade.

Fine - I wasn't disputing that upgrading is necessary to move in the right direction, but pointing out it will not work by itself.

Originally posted by Solver
As for management being at fault, I don't see how that might be the case. Sure, management hasn't always been perfect, as I'm sure anyone in the administration would agree, but it has never been an obstacle to upgrade efforts, quite on the contrary.

And ever since this administration took over there hasn't been a lack of desire to upgrade. When almost the entire backend for the forum upgrade is taken care of by one person, who has very little time to spare on it, how is that a leadership problem instead of a manpower problem? We are indeed not completely incompetent - for instance, if Gramphos could work on the site full-time, you would've had a new forum months ago.

I wasn't arguing that management have been a direct obstacle to the upgrade (one would hope they haven't!). As I said, the point was a wider one about the upgrade not being sufficient by itself. However, since you brought it up I do wonder how long a manpower shortage can persist before one should question whether it's a mangement issue.

In particular we all understand it's hard to recruit people to help (at least those of us that live in the real world, and don't expect everything for nothing ). But the administration doesn't exactly make it easy for itself with its comms mistakes and lack of a consisently communicated vision for the site - something that could easily generate interest amongst people with the right skills if handled correctly.

I made similar points (as I'm sure you'll recall) with my customary clarity and insight here:

http://apolyton.net/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=173333

And for a while there I thought I had really got through to you guys:

http://apolyton.net/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=173386

http://apolyton.net/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=174597

(edit: right thread now linked)

http://apolyton.net/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=176434

But nothing of the same order for the last 6 months. And I don't believe it's a manpower shortage, or a technical issue.

Originally posted by Solver
Our internal organization is fine. We have a good overall plan on what we want to do with the forum and the site, we have the forum upgrade broken down into separate tasks and prioritized appropriately, all of that is good.

Sounds great - post about it more.

[Solver]

I honestly think that communication has improved this year. And that is largely due to you fairly pointing out how little of it there had been prior to that - I'm talking about the first thread you link to. There haven't been such updates lately because there's not too much to say. Our plan right now is pretty much what it was 6 months ago, so it's just the (slow) implementation that has been going on.

Again, I won't pretend that the administration or the communication is perfect but I doubt that we'd have more manpower even if that were handled better. We have said several times that we'd be happy to have volunteers and we were clear enough, I think, about the skills we're looking for and what we want to accomplish. The thing is, there are only so many people that could potentially help. Outsiders just aren't going to fit our situation, it's not like anyone unfamiliar with the site would want to do this for free. And we don't have the means to hire a professional web developer or anything like that.

I guess the nature of the work is also a factor to consider. Frankly, much of the work that remains to be done isn't very fun, at least not to most people. When we're looking for people to edit site news, site content or do some other stuff, getting them actually turns out to be relatively easy. Either someone answers a public call for volunteers or some individuals get contacted privately by the admins and accept. All those things are more fun to do than wrapping the upgrade up.

Sounds great - post about it more.

Well, what do you want to know? I can say that right now the biggest problem with the new forum is the frontend interface. The backend is working fine. All the basic things have been working for quite some time now, most other features are also working to an acceptable extent. But the problem is, there's no real interface to it. Not only it doesn't currently look exactly like how we envision the Apolyton forum theme, the frontend just doesn't really work enough to be usable. Which makes sense because little has been actually implemented in that regard, hence the need for XHTML/CSS people now.

We're not that far from being able to show you something, actually. Again, the backend is working. The database of the new forum is okay, there are some known quirks and probably many bugs but it's working. A frontend is what we need now to be able to show something. However, due to our infamous manpower issues, I can't give any timetable estimates. Nobody knows, for instance, if any work on that stuff will be done this week or not. Maybe Gramphos or Locutus will suddenly have free time, maybe they won't. Ultimately, estimates can't be given because of the staff members' schedules being tight and unpredictable.

[DrSpike]

Thanks. I don't think people need lots of technical updates - but updates on general progress every month or two wouldn't hurt. It would also keep minds focused amongst the management team.

You could also cover wider plans for the site - around new releases etc. The Civ:Col release was a good opportunity to create some buzz for instance.

[FrostyBoy]

Ok hear you all (admins) loud and clear.

I have good knowledge in (X)HTML, CSS, PHP and MSSQL (but not MySQL).

The problem I see now is that even though I may be able to help, I can not exactly take off where Gramphos left. If I were to help, I would need to start from scratch. I would also need to see what you guys have actually done, what kind of forum you are doing (examples?) and what server support you have.

I can help graphics wise as well.

I am a strong believer in simplicity, so I hope you guys are aiming for that.

[Paddy]

Originally posted by FrostyBoy
Ok hear you all (admins) loud and clear.

I have good knowledge in (X)HTML, CSS, PHP and MSSQL (but not MySQL).

The problem I see now is that even though I may be able to help, I can not exactly take off where Gramphos left. If I were to help, I would need to start from scratch. I would also need to see what you guys have actually done, what kind of forum you are doing (examples?) and what server support you have.

I can help graphics wise as well.

I am a strong believer in simplicity, so I hope you guys are aiming for that.

good value mate

looking foward to seeing where you can take this issue

[Hueij]

Been away from Apolyton a couple of weeks so I missed this.

If you guys need help on (X)HTML/CSS on the main site (not the forums) I'd be willing to spend some time and effort.

[DarkCloud]

We are essentially running on 2001 technology right now, with a few additions here and there, and have a 2001 forum layout, only uglier.

I like how the layout looks...

A tech upgrade however, is needed for various reasons.

[Locutus]

Just as an update for those not 'in the know': we are extremely happy to report that no less than 4 people volunteered their efforts in or as a result of this thread -- I think that's more than from all our previous calls for help in the past 2 years combined! Our gratitude goes to all these volunteers We're talking to them now and have already added most of them to our team. The past has unfortunately taught us that that's by no means a guarantee they'll actually be able to make a meaningful contribution to speed up the upgrade efforts, but with 4 new additions the odds are certainly looking favourable this time.

When we get a little closer to being able to show you guys a finished product we'll be able to talk more about the details, but in the mean time rest assured that we are (as always) hard at work behind the scenes...

[DrSpike]

to volunteers.

And fingers crossed that this time the message sticks around the value of better comms.

[Seedle]

The new forums will have naked babe threads right?

[TCO]

Solver, you're acting like Vel in Candyland.

[Grandpa Troll]

Originally posted by Locutus
Just as an update for those not 'in the know': we are extremely happy to report that no less than 4 people volunteered their efforts in or as a result of this thread -- I think that's more than from all our previous calls for help in the past 2 years combined! Our gratitude goes to all these volunteers We're talking to them now and have already added most of them to our team. The past has unfortunately taught us that that's by no means a guarantee they'll actually be able to make a meaningful contribution to speed up the upgrade efforts, but with 4 new additions the odds are certainly looking favourable this time.

When we get a little closer to being able to show you guys a finished product we'll be able to talk more about the details, but in the mean time rest assured that we are (as always) hard at work behind the scenes...

Thanks Locutus