Heads Up on Searching

[DrSpike]

I understand your frustration at not being able to recruit people to help with the key tasks you've identified, but you are in the unfortunate position that if you allow that frustration to seep into your posts you can easily exacerbate the situation.

As to what you can do - I laid out some thoughts in the thread below (a thread which was closed by the administration despite the fact it contained polite feedback rather than complaints or flames).

http://www.apolyton.net/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=173333

The keys are:

1) You first need to create the sense amongst volunteers that they can make a difference. The lack of vision for the site makes this hard. In the thread above the admin team initially wouldn't even say what their goals were for the coming year - despite the fact I gave them a golden opportunity where they would be responding constructively to a community member rather than just pronouncing from on high.

2) Better comms - you build buy-in to your plans through community engagement rather than berating people.

3) Better prioritisation of existing resource. You have quite a few staff members working on things that may well be less important than the tasks you have identified, because they are fun things you want to do.

I appreciate some of those staff wont have the technical expertise to help with the hardcore stuff, but how many jobs like the wikipedia stuff for instance could be done over the next month if resource was taken from 'Polycast for instance?

Now I want to make absolutely clear I'm not knocking 'PolyCast as although I don't regularly listen (it's too long and unfocused - an an aside relevant here a separate debate with Dan was had on this where he didn't appear to want to listen to the views his own consulation exercise had thrown up from the community)I see that the administration is trying to add something that could make a difference over the longer term. But I think there is a strong case for looking at how much staff time goes on that (and ModCast actually) and what else could be done with it.

In particular I wonder about Dan's time - since he seems to spend quite a bit on PolyCast and perhaps could spend this time providing more leadership and direction elsewhere, so that you could begin to build a stronger base of staff.

Now I fully expect that having outlined all this I'm, once again, going to be given short shrift. But happy to be proved wrong.

[Locutus]

So, in other words, you want to us to stop having any fun, work our asses off doing exactly what you tell us to do and then report back to you on our every move. And you'll do... what exactly in return?

[DrSpike]

I'm done here - I'm not going to get drawn into a flamefest. I've argued my points, which you can take or leave, as desired.

[Solver]

[sorry, broken shift-key keyboard here]

spike, please take into account that we are indeed committed to better communications here. last month, a status update was posted in this forum - we will continue to do those as there is something new to report. we generally try to engage in discussions with our members, such as now, as opposed to snubbing feedback. it's not as bad as you make it out to be.

better staff allocation - it's a fair point but you are wrong on that one. as said, the forum upgrade is our top priority. those that are able to work on it do so, largely ignoring other possible tasks except for any immediate and urgent needs [such as spambot cleanup]. the resources spent on polycast, for example, hardly have any overlap with the forum upgrade. most of the work - finding topics, the actual editing - is done by dan himself. dan's technical skills are quite limited and there is little he can do to help with the upgrade - he does provide direction where needed, but most of the work we need done is purely of a technical nature, and not having dan on it does not make it any slower.

wikipedia is another good example. the wiki's policies and guidelines are such that it would be frowned upon for our staff members to be editing the pages. it's -not- a difficult job, we've provided some links to help out with references, etc. yet no one stepped out to volunteer an hour or two of his time in the many months that we've been asking for it.

our staffing has improved lately. nugog and rob did and still do a great job with the tri-league, it's a success by any measure. in the past we haven't been active enough in approaching people, now we do approach people when we think we have a good candidate for helping us. it seems that generally asking for volunteers is rarely effective enough.

[ZEE]

perhaps my original post here WAS a little overblown and out of proportion. I do not have the techie skills that Wouter requires to be of assistance, but I have been a veteran of the internet, and boards, for over 15 years. and without filling up a half a page with a long-winded (and oft ignored) post i will just make 1 point clear that is our biggest weakness IMO.

Poly is n00b un-friendly. and not just by the old timers. They start as Settlers with no avatar choices, and not everybody will stay here and post for months on end just to get "respect." THIS is the turn off. I know the Admin hates when i mention other websites but just look around. CG has immediate custom avatar choices and custom titles for ALL new users. This makes them feel welcome and more comfortable than just seeing their name on a empty page, soon to be filled with smurky old-timers with huge avatars and badges everywhere. ForumWarz has a Klan system where n00bs can join and feel more at home and safer knowing they have a few friends to start. What can n00bs do here? Join AU...?

I hope you see where i am going with this. if not im sorry i wasted your time.

[Solver]

that is just patently false. there is no reason why a newtimer needs to earn "respect" of any kind. anyone can contribute, and the contributions by some settlers and chieftains are many times more valuable than the contributions by some old-timers.

yes, new posters aren't usually welcomed well in the otf but that's a separate problem. our tri-league is again another example of what's good for new members - many have joined and feel well there. we never discourage new people from joining and we never encourage any unfriendly treatment of new members.

[ZEE]

you are not understanding what i am saying.

its about the "flavor" of the site as well. didnt CFC COPY our settler/cheiftan system? besides it is a lousy way to "advance" posters.

give new posters custom avatars, at least. form a guild system where the guild appears under the posters name, or whatever, instead of silly obsolete badges nobody cares about. Simple things like this will make a HUGE difference. Yall may have the tech skills to do whatever you want with the code, but without fresh ideas you are like an artist with all the tools and paint in the world... and not a single idea of what to paint. I KNOW what to paint i just am a lousy artist.

i hope you understand my point here, i know im not the best communicator here but i have a LOT of experience and i know what a good website looks like. thanks

[Solver]

we've been around for a long time but the settler/chieftain systems are nothing we invented. it's an usual forum rank system that has existed on forums before us and still exists to this day on almost every forum. and strange as it may be, many people actually like the concept of advancing in ranks. sure, it's just a minor gimmick in the end, but so is post count - yet many people genuinely care about both.

guild systems? i do not see how it is relevant. how is that different from civgroups anyway? civgroups can be joined by anyone and are, essentially, things that the community members can do / participate in.

[ZEE]

ok, assume you are correct. also pretend you are teh new person that somehow finds Apolyton...

n00b: hmmm cool a site about civ! How do i get an avatar like Asher there? thats cool! and whats all those funny boxes under Solver's name? Are those like Player Klans? COOL i wanna join... um how do i join? do i click on one of them? MAN I SURE WISH THIS SITE HAD BROWSING TABS LIKE 95% OF ALL OTHER SITES. Maybe I will post about this. erm where do i post about this? well i GUESS this is Off TOpic i will post there.

n00b post in OTF: Thread Title: n00b NEEDS HELP!

Hi im a n00b that is confused as to the layout of your site, what does (blah, blah, blah, mean?)

Wiglaf:

Slowwy: Get lost punk

etc etc etc

see my point now?

[DanQ]

Originally posted by DrSpike
Now I want to make absolutely clear I'm not knocking 'PolyCast as although I don't regularly listen (it's too long and unfocused - an an aside relevant here a separate debate with Dan was had on this where he didn't appear to want to listen to the views his own consulation exercise had thrown up from the community)

The "too long and unfocused" point I disagree with still, but you're entitled to your opinion as I am mine, but that I "didn't appear to want to listen" is off practically speaking at the very least.

Examples? First, episodes are shorter as a result of such consultation; I recognize that that that does relate to your "too long" point , but I don't know if you've listened to an episode or two since that change. Second, there's an ongoing thread for suggested topics for PolyCast (and ModCast), which you have participated in , and some of those topics have already made it into a PC episode. As concrete participation continues, even more inclusions are probable.

As Solver has already noted, my technical capabilities towards a forum upgrade are limited and I have and continue to do what I can to assist in this regard otherwise.

[Solver]

AAHZ, you are exaggerating in some part. A new poster that tries to click a civgroup icon under my name, for example, will see a listing of members of that civgroup, and there is a join link there, too. Setting avatars is done through the control panel just like every other forum - yeah, the panel itself looks differently, but that's something that will be solved by upgrading the forums.

We're also planning to rename this forum to "site feedback" and change its display position to make it easier and more understandable. We sure have problems with new members but it's nowhere near as bad as you make it out to be.

[ZEE]

Even when we upgrade the forums, to VB3 i assume, how much will that really solve WRT user traffic?

All my ideas have been scoffed and shot down. I know what i said was right WRT n00bs in every respect re-read my ideas in every post above CLOSELY and you might see your horrible mistake.

CFC is not that high of a standard to set ourselves to either. I think their layout is hideous, and the only reason everybody posts there is because it is a Civ site that is not here.

Eventis and CG have MUCH better layouts than CFC OR Poly. The only reason they are not as active is because they are just small "cliquish" sites about nothing in particular. If Poly folds they will still be around for many years after i can guarentee you.

ForumWarz destroys this site in every respect from Administration activity/updates/and SQL protection, site activity, User contributions, layout, and just plain addictiveness.

I have given yall the facts. This is not me slinging my ego around this is the gods honest truth. Locutus will probably barge in and start ranting at me and everything but i dont really care. Rant at me. Do whatever. I am only trying to help, and if doing these things yall have to take the site down for a month i for one would not really care. I have 4 other boards i go to, quite frankly, and the best thing about Poly IMHO is the (small) community and the fact i can embed You-Tube Vids.

Now ban me and act all god-like if you want because i have had it with the pompous assishness of this situation.

[Solver]

I do not see much in terms of specific suggestions coming from you. Custom avatars for new users is the only thing you've said, everything else is really abstract. And hey, don't overestimate our layout. Ours is really bad and I don't see what's so bad about CFC's. Granted, layouts are always a matter of personal preference in the end, but there are objective factors, too. Such as our layout not currently adhering to the actual and de-facto standards of web design.

[ZEE]

OK i will list it out real carefully

1)n00bs do not want to feel like n00bs. Give them avatars of their choosing. i dont know how more simple i can explain this.

2)MAKE THE SITE IDIOT-PROOF. Assume the average user is a complete moron. Nobody knows where the hell anything is. nothing is explained. If i was a moron i would be so confused i would not even know where the control panel is. I still dont about a lot of hidden stuff. I use only like 3 buttons on the hideous control bar at the top of the page.

3)COMPLETELY RE-DO CIVGROUPS Now they are so confusing and strange i refuse to join another one until the feature is redone, or yall perma-ban me for complaining about it.

4)If you need to take the site down, just do it! I know everybody is insanely busy all day all night all year, but nothing can be changed with the server on all the time. When most sites do major updates they close the site and change it. People here will not be mad in fact they might start celebrating that we will get our Poly back.

i will let you digest this before i continue.

[Solver]

You do realize that your point about the site being confusing is all about its layout, right? As you say, the bar at the top of the page is hideous. That makes our array of features quite confusing. In addition, our control panel doesn't look like that of any other site. To a large degree, these problems should be fixed by the forum upgrade.

Civgroups... you're being pretty vague here. While they do tend to get lost in the overall clutter, here it's hard for me to see confusion. On the basic level, a civgroup is just a group that posters can join to get identified as members... doesn't sound too difficult. It isn't even anything particularly unusual.

As for taking the server offline, we do not need to do it. As it has been said, we have a test version of vB3 up and running anyway, and of course that's where we mess with things and experiment. We'll need to take the forums offline to complete the upgrade, but that will be the final stage of it and wouldn't last too long. We have nothing to gain by making the forums go offline now.