Quick Smilie Box Choices

[OzzyKP]

Originally posted by Solver
And just to emphasize again - if there are any web programmers reading this who are willing to help (with at least PHP and SQL knowledge) then please, by all means, contact any of the administrators.

Maybe making such an appeal more public in the forum would be a good step. Let people know that you are working on an upgrade and need help. I'm sure you'd get people to step forward.

[LordShiva]

Teh problem is not with teh availability or nonavailability of hacks but with getting current forum data from teh custom hacks into teh new software.

[OzzyKP]

Originally posted by Gramphos

still there is the problem of porting the existing data. We can't just tell all civgroup members to rejoin.

As I said, there are tools in the v3 admin program that make adding users to usergroups fairly easy. Use one of your non-tech savvy staffers to do this, he could transfer civgroup membership over in like 2-3 hours.

Yes I'm aware how many civgroups there are. Yes I know how many members there are. But if you have like 10 staff and only two of them are techies, the other 8 have a lot of time they could invest in doing simple but monotonous tasks like this. Make use of them.

[OzzyKP]

Originally posted by LordShiva
Teh problem is not with teh availability or nonavailability of hacks but with getting current forum data from teh custom hacks into teh new software.

Yes, some parts of this switch will be harder than others. Or at least more time consuming. I'm not on the inside so I can't give any specific advice on how to do it, but maybe edit the new hack so it pulls data from the old database, or develop an SQL script to move data from one database to another, or show those 8ish non-tech staff how to do the monotonous work of moving over the data manually.

I understand the "We're not idiots, this is just a bigger problem than you realize" line, and you're right, I'm not on the inside I really don't know all the nuts and bolts of this issue, but then again I also see comments here and there that show a lack of understanding of v3 and some of the features and conveniences it offers, and ignorance of some of the hacks available out there. So while I give due credit for the size of the project, whenever I see a comment that just seems uninformed about something I figure maybe more information would help you guys realize that at least some parts of this big job aren't as hard as you thought.

[Solver]

We have asked for people to volunteer previously. It wasn't met with great success.

And no offense but you just don't know what you're talking about. Again, our forum functionality is considerably different from stock vB. Yes, adding users to groups in vB3 is easy. And a techy could assign the right users to the right group in a few minutes with one SQL query. The problem here, for example, is that what groups do on our forum is well different from what they do on default vB3 installations. We have many custom permission, features and other group-related stuff which means that we need to change a lot of group-related code in vB3 as well.

You are well aware of the numbers here - how many civgroups, members and posts we have. You're not aware, though, of the technical complications here, the scope of changes to our database structure and the amount of home-made code written that has no similar corresponding vB3 functionality.

Your concerns are very valid but there's one key bit of difference. Years ago, the answer was that an upgrade is very complex and therefore an upgrade isn't really planned. This time the answer is that an upgrade is still very complex but we plan to do it nonetheless. As Locutus said, this has been one of our priorities ever since the administration transition that took place last year.

We'll get there. And we are indeed not incompetent - we have had the relevant discussions and done a fair bit of research, don't worry about that part.

[Solver]

Originally posted by OzzyKP
I also see comments here and there that show a lack of understanding of v3 and some of the features and conveniences it offers, and ignorance of some of the hacks available out there.

It's not that, it's more your lack of understanding of our features. Just because vB3 has features that are similar to something we have doesn't mean that porting that particular part becomes easy. Like I say about user groups in my previous post - it may well be something similar but our database has a different structure and a fair bit of functionality not provided by the vB3 counterpart.

There are things we can easily replace with the vB3 features/hacks (like our custom profile fields) but these aren't the things holding it all back.

[LordShiva]

Maybe if teh administration hadn't fired Markos, we could make him do all teh work

[Solver]

Actually, he stepped down himself

[LordShiva]

Or so teh story goes

[OzzyKP]

Originally posted by Solver


It's not that, it's more your lack of understanding of our features. Just because vB3 has features that are similar to something we have doesn't mean that porting that particular part becomes easy. Like I say about user groups in my previous post - it may well be something similar but our database has a different structure and a fair bit of functionality not provided by the vB3 counterpart.

There are things we can easily replace with the vB3 features/hacks (like our custom profile fields) but these aren't the things holding it all back.

And again, you need to decide just how valuable every bit of the existing custom hacks are. Perhaps some parts just aren't worth the trouble.

[Solver]

Yes, we've also discussed the importance of various parts. There are some that we would be willing to launch without. Unfortunately, though, for the most part the unimportant parts are really easy to transfer and the important ones are the most difficult.

[Grandpa Troll]

Originally posted by OzzyKP
But if you have like 10 staff and only two of them are techies, the other 8 have a lot of time they could invest in doing simple but monotonous tasks like this. Make use of them.

OzzyKP

This has to be a troll?

I am on Staff, mostly as a news editor and also have been working on another project.

In real life outside of Poly I am an Area Manager with a newly added facility. Thats three facilities and 45 persons I now supervise

In personal life my wife and best friend MrsTroll take my time.

I am also on almost constant meds awaiting another operation, post accident, (Two surgeries in same day) As I am in almost constant and nauseating pain.

That being said, and I can speak for myself only, I love Poly and want it to suceed

But my time is pretty limited right now, actually very limited.

I am just now taking something for pain and after a bit, probably wont be able to do much outside of mumble and drool. (Vicodin has that side effect on me)

I honestly understand as in past I would want something to be done for me by Staff/Admin but was not addressed quick enough for me.

I got P!$$ED off and should have forgiven them in my heart, but felt it was so simple they couldn't get it done.

Then I was allowed and accepted to join Staff.

It would be useless to try to sell to most here, but you have allways approached me as having quite a sufficient level of intellect. Much goes on behind the scenes already taxing our limited resources..

/me offers this to ponder ...Time is a commodity and a precious day soon,too, slips away

[Nikolai]

Originally posted by Locutus
And it's not 1999 anymore when all of us were students with tons of free time.

Pardon me? When did we poor students get tons of free time? Work and studying actually take a lot of my time, rest assured of that.

[Locutus]

I still maintain that you all are making this project more difficult than it needs to be.

No, you're under the impression that this is a lot simpler than it really is. We've told you a dozen times in different terms, I don't know what else to say to make it clearer. We've had a test version of vB3 running for months, if it was just a matter of installing a few hacks and flipping a switch we would've done it already. We coded all of our custom hacks ourselves, we've been working with vB3 for months, if anyone knows the best way to combine the two it's us...

And as far as analysing what needs to be kept and what not, do you really think we haven't done that already? Again, we're not completelely incompetent...

I understand you want to see changes around the site, but we've had some of those already: we have a new management, a LOT of new staff (about twice as much as we had a little over a year ago), a new server, etc. We restored PC in the OT, we created subforums there, we started a Civ4 tournament, a podcast, added CivRev to our coverage. And that's just (some of) the stuff you guys can see, a LOT more has happened and is happening 'under the hood'.

Things are changing, but it wasn't for no reason that Markos for years didn't want to upgrade the forums, it's a HUMONGOUS operation as we've pointed out many times. We've been working on it in some form or another since the change in administration a year ago but it takes time, a LOT of time. And it's just not gonna happen faster than it is while we don't have more programmers on staff -- which we've called for for about a year now as well but no one's stepped forward. We've had to resort to doing some in-house training but that too takes time and frankly in the short run has only taken the attention away from the forum upgrade -- but it is quite necessary to be able to make the changes we'd like to make, not just to the forums but to every other aspect of the site.

[OzzyKP]

Originally posted by Solver
It's not that, it's more your lack of understanding of our features.

OK..... let me give some examples. Excessive quoting seems snippy and more antagonistic, which I certainly don't want, but I want to show what I'm seeing.

On PLUS:

Originally posted by Locutus
Yes, and that would be awesome if we were willing to completely dump everything we have now and start over: tell the people who bought PLUS that they're out of luck and have to buy what they have now all over again,

Originally posted by Locutus
That's not acceptable for us. For one thing, there's nothing out there that's truly equivalent to PLUS. Yes, vB3 has a built-in subscription model that we in fact would love to use, but even once we're done manually porting over all the subscription data that basically just takes care of the payment side of things. The various bonuses for PLUS users such as no ads, bigger avatars, higher priority during high server load, etc is all stuff that still has to be manually re-coded for vB3, there is no easy way around that.

Why would people have to re-buy PLUS when you later say you can just port over the subscription data. Later, Solver says you could just run an SQL query to do so. I guess I couldn't tell if Locutus' comment about having to repurchase PLUS is a ridiculous strawman or a true ignorance of how this would work.

As for the various bonuses PLUS provides, I know I have seen hacks for no ads, or if nothing else it can just be done by making ad-free skins, and having PLUS members use those skins instead of the ad skins. Now I know what you are thinking, Ozzy just doesn't understand how many skins we have, that would be a lot of work. I understand how many different skins Apolyton has and most of them look like crap and aren't used. Trim those down a lot and save yourselves some work. Just include the 5 most popular skins perhaps.

Then Locutus mentions bigger avatars, which is a default option of usergroups in v3. That is ridiculously easy to implement. If you guys had been exploring v3, then he should have known that.

I admit I'm stumped on the higher server load priority. Maybe that is something you would have to figure out how to customize by hand for v3 and it'd be a pain in the ass, like you say, but maybe it is a feature we could just do without. Or maybe PLUS members would be ok if you launched the v3 forum without that feature with the understanding that it would return at a later time, and wouldn't want the whole page being held up because of that small feature.

Originally posted by Locutus
delete our entire database of ~100 civgroups and related news items (which includes among other things most of our ApolyCon coverage)

As Solver said, transferring over membership from civgroups to v3 usergroups is fairly easy to do with an SQL query. Transferring over the news items, I understand, would be more intensive. Some thoughts though... there are CMS type hacks for v3 that have news features. I think something could be found that would do a pretty good representation of the existing civgroups. If the news stories are stored in the database, it should be another SQL query to switch it over. It might look and work a bit different with the CMS instead of the custom in-house script, but it would be a good trade off overall. If, for whatever reason, the database structure is too complicated for an automatic move then show a non-techy how to do it and give them a few hours of work to knock it out.

Originally posted by Locutus
and tell people currently participating in DGs, leagues and the like that they have to restart from scratch (in the mean time revealing all the private forums to the general public),

All posts are in the database and won't be difficult to transfer to the new forum. Nothing would be lost. No one would have to start from scratch. Why would you suggest that? v3 can handle private forums with little difficulty. Why would revealing private forums to the general public ever be an option or a worry? I don't understand where you'd get that.

Originally posted by Locutus
simply delete everything anyone has in their NotePad, tough luck for those who stored important data in there.

Again, I don't know what NotePad is, or how many people actually use it, but if there is no equivalent in v3, maybe just send out e-mails and tell people to take what they need from it before it gets erased. It isn't worth holding up the whole project over.

Originally posted by Locutus
There's also nothing out there that's truely the equivalent of CivGroups: it's not just a matter of porting over the data to the advanced usergroup controls of vB3 (which would be a huge undertaking in its own right), we'd have to manually recode the news pages, custom permission settings, etc. There are a lot of issues like that.

Manually recode the news pages, yes. But then again, we shouldn't expect the new forum to look exactly the same as the current one. Custom permission settings aren't hard to set at all.