Forum-idea: StarCount

[LordShiva]

Originally posted by CyberShy
I say all of the above not to yell or insult, I say it because I hope poly will be the #1 again.

Poly is #1.

You just want this "StarCount" system so that you could be #1 (or #2, behind Pekka).

[LordShiva]

Originally posted by CyberShy
Have you ever wondered why?
Because the people who visit this forum are looking for +1's and nothing else. They can spam here.
And the spammers don't like the idea because it fights their spam.

Their gut tells them that it's not good for them.
Ever considered that?

Actually, it won't fight spam at all. In fact, I think low ratings under this system would be something like a badge of honour. Conversations would go like this:

A: I'm awesome, I have 0.3 stars.
B. j00 n00bz0r i have 0.2 lol!!1
A.
A. oh look now I have 0.25
C. tldr <--- this guy has 0.1 stars

[Solver]

And in that context I see that the polystaff sables down a new idea, quick and with unsatisfying arguments.

I do not think you could honestly say that. Yes, we've shot this idea down, but I believe we have provided plenty of arguments as to why we think such a system would be a bad idea on this forum.

[Locutus]

Originally posted by CyberShy
Poly has been standing still for years. Nothing really big has changed. I'm trying to give positive criticism here. Oh, and the StarCount system isn't the big change we're looking for either. I understand that. But I think that the 'gut' of you guys isn't as good as it used to be. You guys are all grown up civ-players who have connections with the companies, etc. You are in good contact with your suppliers but you're losing contact with your target, the audience.

I don't suppose that instead of us losing our grip that could have something to do with the fact that this site used to be run by students with all the time in the world at their hands but now those students have grown up, gotten jobs, founded companies, started families, and acquired other responsibilities and only have a fraction of the time they used to have?

Nah... we must've grown incompetent over the years, that's a much more sensible explanation...

Running a little church community site and running the premier Civilization website on the internet that gets countless millions of hits a month, has close to 100k registered members and which has to maintain a technical infrastructure and people network large enough to serve a medium-size town are very, very different things. Don't even think of comparing the two unless you've done both...

[Robert]

Nah... we must've grown incompetent over the years, that's a much more sensible explanation...

I never said that. You're not incompetent.
I only think that you lost a little bit of touch with your audience.

Running a little church community site and running the premier Civilization website on the internet that gets countless millions of hits a month

That's true. I can't compare my little forum with the huge apolyton forum. And I don't dare to claim that I am someone who would do a better job then you guys do. And I only give my forum as an example that I at least have some experience with the StarCount system. But I'm the first to admit that my forum is something totally different.

The reason I posted that post is because Ming said that his gut said 'no' and he trusted his gut. My reaction is: I'm not sure if your 'gut' is as good as it used to be. We all agree that Apolyton is not the #1 civ site anymore. And the reasons you give are as valid as mine. But my conclusion is that at least Ming cannot claim that his gut is good enough to see from a distance if an idea is good or not. I'd say that right now that the gut from the civfanatics forum staff has more value to me then the gut of the poly forum staff. I'm still a polytuby though. And I hope we'll get back on track.

Conclusion: I just counter you guys since the main argument is: "We are the poly staff, we know what we're doing, we know if something will work or not."
All arguments you guys have given have been countered by me. And then I agree, it's my word against you word. And right now you guys do value your own word a little bit too much imho. Having said that, I must say that I do really respect and appreciate the willingness to talk about these things. You're not sitting on a high mountain. I do appreciate that. And I do as a matter of fact appreciate you guys very much.

Solver: I do not think you could honestly say that. Yes, we've shot this idea down, but I believe we have provided plenty of arguments as to why we think such a system would be a bad idea on this forum.

They've all been countered. Some of my counter arguments may have been less satisfying then others, but "pleny of arguments" just doesn't do justice to my arguments. I have given plenty of arguments as well.

[Solver]

But you have to admit something else on those arguments, CS. It's not exactly your word vs. someone else's. It's your word vs. the word of several other people - at least, taking the staff, Ming, Locutus and myself. It's not like we've agreed beforehand to collectively shoot your idea down in this thread. We all arrived at our negative reactions towards it independently. Partly based on the gut feelings, partly on experience - obviously not with this system, but generally with what works and what doesn't here.

Of course, you're free not to trust any of our guts, but I must say that my own gut also tells me that it's a bad idea, and yes, I trust the gut.

We could argue forevermore about whether Apolyton is the #1 site or not. While I am fully aware of its problems, I don't believe any of the top ones would be solved by the star system - merely because the top problems are absolutely different and irrelevant to that. If you asked me to name the top 3 problems I see on Apolyton, then nothing of that kind would be on the list.

[Solver]

Oh,

Conclusion: I just counter you guys since the main argument is: "We are the poly staff, we know what we're doing, we know if something will work or not."

You're being unfair. While yes, we as staff do know some stuff better, at least because we have more knowledge, say, about who gets warned and/or punished, but this hasn't been the main argument here. Far from it. If you review our posts objectively, I think you'll find that our main arguments have been that post length isn't a fair representation of post quality, that spammers would not be deterred, that a new form of spamming/abuse would arise, and that it would have more potential of turning into a "badge" system. Those are some of our main arguments. Any of us could have responded with "Thanks, but we don't think the idea would work" and closed the thread without further explanation - as you can clearly see, we're absolutely willing to explain our opinion.

I also have to give you the thumbs up for arguing this issue in a civilized and very reasonable manner .

[Locutus]

Originally posted by CyberShy
The reason I posted that post is because Ming said that his gut said 'no' and he trusted his gut. My reaction is: I'm not sure if your 'gut' is as good as it used to be.

I just explained to you that we no longer have dozens of hours a week to run the site, code cool features, organise tournaments and do all sorts of other neat stuff. But between our core staff members we probably have close to 100 years of experience in running websites, communities, marketing campaigns and other relevant skills. There is nothing wrong with our instincts, just with our schedule.

And yes, saying we've lost our touch is the same as saying we've become (more) incompetent, I don't see the difference. I consider it an insult either way...

We all agree that Apolyton is not the #1 civ site anymore.

I beg to differ and so have others in this very thread.

I'd say that right now that the gut from the civfanatics forum staff has more value to me then the gut of the poly forum staff.

Again I beg to differ. As much as I respect the effort they put into their site I wouldn't touch their forums with a 10-foot pole, they're pretty bad IMO and run very poorly (though I'll admit the babe threads are one redeeming quality ) Not saying we're perfect (far from it), but if Apolyton was taken offline today I wouldn't go to CFC instead. If I had to choose between any existing fan forums I'd most likely end up on the German forums, despite a healthy dislike of the language. If you think CFC is run better, that's certainly your prerogative, go propose your star ranking to them and see if they like it any better...

[DanQ]

This thread has certainly become one of the most prolific in discussion in such a short period of time in the history of this forum.

Rather than type here in reiteration of what has already been argued, analyzed and discussed, below are references to the posts other Apolyton staff have already made that most accurately and succinctly summarizes my own view on this subject.

General Discussion
http://apolyton.net/forums/showthrea...22#post4658322 (Locutus)
http://apolyton.net/forums/showthrea...23#post4658323 (Ming)

http://apolyton.net/forums/showthrea...09#post4658509 (MarkG)
http://apolyton.net/forums/showthrea...66#post4658666 (Ming)
http://apolyton.net/forums/showthrea...36#post4658836 (Ming)
http://apolyton.net/forums/showthrea...23#post4659823 (Solver)

In Summary...
http://apolyton.net/forums/showthrea...29#post4659929 (Locutus)

---------
Dan; Apolyton CS

[Robert]

But you have to admit something else on those arguments, CS. It's not exactly your word vs. someone else's. It's your word vs. the word of several other people - at least, taking the staff, Ming, Locutus and myself.

That's why I combined you guys into the "old grumphy forum staff" group, that's easier for me to battle with

I don't believe any of the top ones would be solved by the star system

Neither do I.
My latter responses are more in reaction to the general 'conservative' attitude. No, the starcount system won't be the big solution or something. Far from that.

you're being unfair. While yes, we as staff do know some stuff better, at least because we have more knowledge, say, about who gets warned and/or punished

Well, you do know some stuff (much) better indeed.
But I think that you overtrust yourself in this matter, but that's only an opinion.
But it's also not very fair of you that my experiences are being labeled as irrelevant. Eventhough I do admit that there are huge differences, I do at least do have some experiences. And even if we concider all the differences, then we still should know that there are much equalities as well.

but this hasn't been the main argument here. Far from it.

Ok, that's true.

our main arguments have been that post length isn't a fair representation of post quality

I have admitted that, but also did I state that a spammer will have a lower avg chars/post then a quality poster, in general. And that forum-statistics are never 100% reliable (examples of the PBEM forum and short-msg spammers)
My conclusion: you have given a valid argument but my counter-arguments are also valid.

that spammers would not be deterred, that a new form of spamming/abuse would arise

Which may be true to a certain degree. But I have countered that other forms of spam will/may decrease. And I have stated that most forms of large-text spam will filter themselves out (too much work for the spammers) and it is too visible. I have also stated that I already have techniques to neutralise most / all forms of abuse.

Again: both do we have valid arguments, though I think that my arguments are more valid in this case though. (personal observation, far from objective)

and that it would have more potential of turning into a "badge" system

First time I see this argument
Well, so is postcount. And then I think that SC is a better badge then PC. But once again, that's a personal opinion and your opinion in here is valid as well, IMHO.

My conclusion is that it's 3 valid arguments from your side but also 3 valid arguments from my side.
That's why I suggest to just try it since it's not hard to implement it. It can always be removed if it doesn't work. (of course it needs some time)

Having said that, I do also have to say that my counter-arguments mostly haven't been countered by you guys. Locotus still have to proof me that he can technically hack the system and I think that my claims that it's too difficult to keep consistently spamming big posts to keep your SC high is not the cup of thea for the real spammers.

I'm not posting these things to start the debate again (since I'm fine that it's being settled, eventhough it's not in my favor). I post this to show that the arguments are not that one-side against my proposal as you make it look like.

Any of us could have responded with "Thanks, but we don't think the idea would work" and closed the thread without further explanation - as you can clearly see, we're absolutely willing to explain our opinion.

I acknowledged that!
CyberShy:

I must say that I do really respect and appreciate the willingness to talk about these things. You're not sitting on a high mountain. I do appreciate that. And I do as a matter of fact appreciate you guys very much.

[Robert]

Locotus:

There is nothing wrong with our instincts, just with our schedule.

Well, maybe.........
I'll keep that possibility open.
I hope you'll keep mine open as well

And yes, saying we've lost our touch is the same as saying we've become (more) incompetent

Not really since being in touch with your audience is only one of the many qualities one must have to run a website. Not to mention that I never said that you "completely lost touch", just a tad bit

go propose your star ranking to them and see if they like it any better...

Nah, I don't really like civfanatics.
I go there once in a while to look for mods
You should adopt it, I like you

[Robert]

Originally posted by DanQ
This thread has certainly become one of the most prolific in discussion in such a short period of time in the history of this forum.

Rather than type here in reiteration of what has already been argued, analyzed and discussed, below are references to the posts other Apolyton staff have already made that most accurately and succinctly summarizes my own view on this subject.

General Discussion
http://apolyton.net/forums/showthrea...22#post4658322 (Locutus)
http://apolyton.net/forums/showthrea...23#post4658323 (Ming)

http://apolyton.net/forums/showthrea...09#post4658509 (MarkG)
http://apolyton.net/forums/showthrea...66#post4658666 (Ming)
http://apolyton.net/forums/showthrea...36#post4658836 (Ming)
http://apolyton.net/forums/showthrea...23#post4659823 (Solver)

In Summary...
http://apolyton.net/forums/showthrea...29#post4659929 (Locutus)

---------
Dan; Apolyton CS

1. you didn't quote me
2. all your quotes have been countered already by me

But I'll be nice and stop my starcount crusade, you guys are just not ready for it yet
Maybe it's just because you guys aren't smart enough to implement it

I'll open a test forum on my own server soon, I really want to see you guys abuse it in all the ways you've mentioned above. :P

[Heresson]

Can we please have a poll, and vote this proposition off AC?

[Jon Miller]

Pekka would have 5 stars.. and that is just wrong.

JM

[Robert]

There's always the StarCountReduction