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**Xuenay** · June 2, 2006, 16:00

Okay. Now I feel stupid. Just to check that I'd uploaded everything correctly, I glanced at one of the threads from Firaxis.com... followed a link from there... and realized that all of the old forum threads at alpha.owo are STILL accessible. It's just the forum index pages that are inoperable, so you have to navigate by typing in the page numbers.

http://alpha.owo.com/ubb/Forum2/HTML/000495.html for yin's rant, for instance. Tell me this wasn't entirely public knowledge so I didn't make a complete fool out of myself?

**Ecthy** · June 2, 2006, 16:24

Imran is in that thread, jimmytrick too... Also, it seems people took more effort to write posts back then.

**Solver** · June 2, 2006, 17:34

The "How do we kill SMAC" is amazing, in retrospect. Jeff Morris is talking about testing/QA. He expressed hope there would be quality QA for Civ3, but as we know, there was practically none, and the first signs of quality QA appeared in Civ3-Conquests. Interesting stuff, very, very quality.

**Ecthy** · June 2, 2006, 17:39

Solver, what is "quality QA"?

**Zoid** · June 2, 2006, 18:42

Especially good QA?

**yin26** · June 2, 2006, 19:10

Originally posted by Solver
The "How do we kill SMAC" is amazing, in retrospect. Jeff Morris is talking about testing/QA. He expressed hope there would be quality QA for Civ3, but as we know, there was practically none, and the first signs of quality QA appeared in Civ3-Conquests. Interesting stuff, very, very quality.

Jeff astonished me at the time, as the QA guy, for his defeatist approach to the whole issue: 1] There will always be bugs 2] We don't have enough money to explain them and 3] Besides, gamers love to talk about bugs, so a buggy game is good for Firaxis. Is it any wonder Civ3 was a sloppy mess and that after Jeff left QA got much better? I hope he found a line of work he had more passion and talent for.

For my part, 1999 was a tough year. I was part way through nearly 6 years living in Korea. I was still struggling to learn the language, make friends, make a career, be a new father. As I look back at that thread, I see a decent core argument often obscured by a lot of vieled venting about life in general. In that respect, Jeff was right about one thing: Talking about bugs is certainly *easier* and perhaps even more gratifying than talking about the harder issues such as what % bonus seige should get.

**Solver** · June 2, 2006, 19:27

But Yin, in more than one respect, Jeff is right. There will always be bugs. Indeed. Anyone - and I mean anyone - who knows how to program will confirm that writing a program of considerable size without bugs is implausible. The question is how many bugs there will be. Worst-case scenario, you have a Civ3 on your hands - significant features flat-out not working out of the box. A better scenario is when you have a Civ4 on your hands - there are bugs here and there, but no major gamebreaking bugs.

Jeff, by the way, was the producer of Civ3, not the lead of QA. Hence, I don't think you can directly relate Jeff and the bug quality of Civ3. In Civ4, for instance, Jesse Smith is our producer, but Tim McCraken is the guy in charge of the QA.

As for communication... as Jeff noted in that thread, it really is outside his competence. Or the competence of Brian/Sid, back then. Yes, I think companies such as Firaxis should have an employee for contact with the fanbase, and for a time, Dan Magaha, post-Civ3 sort of did that. But publishers fund game development. Hence, they (unfortunately) have a lot of say. And publishers may even impose limits on what the developers can post on forums...

Ultimately, though, talking about bugs is easy indeed. Bugs are obvious to spot, and they can give anyone an excuse to say "you did it wrong" or "you screwed up". If you say that Cossacks are overpowered, you've got to show and argument why, but if you find a bug, you don't have to show why it's a bad thing, hence bugs are easier to talk about.

**Solver** · June 2, 2006, 19:33

Another thing I find funny... Yin criticizes SMAC back there in 1999. On Firaxis.com, to quote Jimmytrick, "SMAC is best known as a bug ridden, half finished game, one of the biggest disappointments in gaming history".

Interesting to note how there may have been disappointed voices back then, but now SMAC stands as a classic, one of the most acclaimed games ever (not just in the strategy genre), and how it still has a following over here. SMAC had a LOT of bugs and problems, but overall IMO, it's a fantastic game, and while Civ4 managed to do many of the same things right, there are still elements of SMAC that no other TBS game can match.

**Grandpa Troll** · June 2, 2006, 19:41

Originally posted by yin26

For my part, 1999 was a tough year. I was part way through nearly 6 years living in Korea. I was still struggling to learn the language, make friends, make a career, be a new father. As I look back at that thread, I see a decent core argument often obscured by a lot of vieled venting about life in general. .

Nostalgia indeed, it was about that time we met, my bad in offending you but have grown to respect you.

I must have added pain and suffering for being a sm@rt@zz

IIRC, you were a moderator then?????

(It was thereabout Alexanders Horse gave me the title of being a Troll for I was know as Dr Danger)

Well, memories indeed

**yin26** · June 2, 2006, 22:15

It's bugs minus good communication that can (and did) cause problems. I'd say a producer has an even bigger role in the communication department (if he's any good). In the end, though, who cares? I no longer do except in a passing sense.

Gramps: I only hold grudges about things I can remember well, and don't remember well the two of us tangling over anything more than some comment about Australia or something. Who knows. Maybe I had a bad day. Maybe you had a bad day. It's all history and friendship, right?

**Grandpa Troll** · June 2, 2006, 22:21

Originally posted by yin26
Gramps: I only hold grudges about things I can remember well, and don't remember well the two of us tangling over anything more than some comment about Australia or something. Who knows. Maybe I had a bad day. Maybe you had a bad day. It's all history and friendship, right?

Indeed

Hey, good thing is, I have learned you are a voice to be trusted along with Solver.

Few people I trust on opinions but when auditing your posts you make an individual think about some issues.

Anyhoo, glad the water went beneath and we build a bridge above

Gramps

Attached Files

**Jeje2** · June 3, 2006, 05:14

Well I for one am disappointed - Not a single post by me in one the old threads...
I know I was posting back then so where are they?...

**DrSpike** · June 3, 2006, 05:22

Funny stuff.

What strikes me most if what liars we are when it comes to predicting our future purchases. Several people in that thread said they wouldn't buy Civ3 if SMAC wasn't finished. It never really was, but Jimmy for instance bought Civ3, and whined about that too.

People bought PtW even though the Civ3 release had problems. Same with C3C - people bought that even though PtW was a bit of a disaster initially (MP, the main feature, didn't work!), and in C3C they even broke more than they had fixed with PtW patches! I myself made a post about how if C3C wasn't finished (surprise surprise it never was) people wouldn't buy Civ4, but in my heart I knew it wasn't true.

And I bought Civ4.

Maybe it's our fault the bugs are never fixed. Fortunately Civ4 has started from a good position in this regard.

**Jeje2** · June 3, 2006, 05:59

...beep...beep...beep...

Yin26: nice entry to Firaxis BB - look at this .

yin26 posted 04-29-99 04:06 AM ET

How long has he been like that?

Maybe a week.

Is he alive? He looks horrid. His face is gone.

Yeah, he's alive. We've got him hooked up to an anal feeder tube.

God! That must taste horrible! Can I talk to him?

Well...let's give him a smack to wake him up.

My God! His eyes just lit up!

This is odd, he's been brain dead for days.

It must have been something you said, Doctor.

All I said was let's give him a smack...

There! He's really movin' now!

Yin, what am I saying that's making you react? "Let's"?

Nothing, doctor.

"Give"?

Nope, he's not reacting.

"Him"?

Still nothing.

"A"?

We're losing him!

"Smack"?

Dear Lord, his vitals are off the chart!

"Smack," Yin, is that it? Smack, smack, smack.

Stop it, Doctor, you're overstimulating him, the poor gimp.

He wants to talk...what's he saying?

Let's listen...it sounds like...

What? What!?

It doesn't make any sense. It sounds like he said:

"Singularity, get the car ready."

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Some recovered alpha.owo threads online

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