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  • I'm not concerned if an absurdly impossible example "breaks" the system. Some of your examples are pretty legitimate, and should be addressed.

    Believe it or not, I am not dismissing all of your points, and I do keep a careful watch each year of ways that the fantasy system seems "broken." Some specifics, though:

    The QB who makes 40 completions for 300 yards is not a crappy dink-and-dunk player. In fact, if he makes 40 completions in a game, period, that means he must necessarily be producing a huge number of first downs to get that many attempts in the first place. 300+ yards per game means you'll be pushing 5000 yards and Dan Marino's passing record.

    There's no particular reason to punish someone who just drives the ball downfield a little slower and more methodically. Such players are highly consistent, and they give their defenses time to rest. Drew Brees and Tom Brady exemplify this, and Peyton Manning has actually gotten more dink-and-dunk-y in his career for the reasons I just gave.

    Now, I am convinced that you've actually identified some highly legitimate real-world cases that show problems with our scoring system. You might be (mostly) misidentifying the problems, though. Let's look at both example cases, starting with Albie's favorite:

    Brees: 37/56 (66%) 354 yards (6.32 Y/A) and 2 TDs and 4 INTS... 28.45 fantasy points
    Big Ben: 19/27 (70%) 302 yards (11.18 Y/A) and 2 TDs and 1 fumble... 28.70 fantasy points

    First of all, let's try something. Let's take away all the plays on which there was a turnover, to just examine the "dink and dunk vs downfield" problem better.

    Brees's line becomes 37/52 (71.1%) for 356 yards, 2 TDs. 40.45 points.
    Roethlisberger remains 19/27 (70.3%) for 302 yards, 2 TDs. 31.70 points.

    Quick note: they've both been penalized for 3 sacks, as well, which depresses their numbers a little bit. Note that Brees is getting roughly double points on completions, and double the penalty for incompletions. But all in all, Brees is 8-9 points ahead for only 54 yards more and a tiny bit better completion percentage, with lower yards per attempt. First, I'd put it to you that Brees's production is clearly not "lol 3 yard pass on 3rd and 6" stuff, because he's obviously moved the ball a hell of a lot. For fantasy purposes, I don't see a gigantic earth-shattering problem with him having a small advantage over Roethlisberger in fantasy. I'd agree that the advantage under the current system is too large, and I'll probably nudge the incompletion penalty a bit upward next year.

    I think what you really have a problem with is Brees doing so well despite four turnovers to Big Ben's one. This is very legitimate. We've given QBs the ability to rack up huge amounts of points. Someone like Drew Brees, who is excellent, will, on the rare occasion that he throws a pick-six (only -3 points for him) will immediately get the ball back, and probably make up those -3 points in a handful of plays. That's a problem, I think.

    With the Colts-Patriots game, it becomes even more clear.

    Manning 38-52-396 4 TD 3 Int (rating 96,3) ~65 pts
    Brady 19-25-186 2 TD 0 Int (rating 123.1) ~33 pts

    Manning was legitimately more than double the QB that Brady was, in terms of "positive production." His entire stat line more than doubles Brady's.

    What you obviously have a problem with is the fact that he threw 3 interceptions, and it didn't significantly dent his scoring. (It brought him down from 74 to 65. Big deal.)




    TLDR: The real problem is a too-weak interception penalty. Albie is also right that attempts are probably too highly rewarded, but really, only slightly.
    "You're the biggest user of hindsight that I've ever known. Your favorite team, in any sport, is the one that just won. If you were a woman, you'd likely be a slut." - Slowwhand, to Imran

    Eschewing silly games since December 4, 2005

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Al B. Sure! View Post
      Jaguar, the issue is that the throw it 50 times a QB is being DOUBLY rewarded in a way that the runningback, kicker, etc. isn't.

      ...

      Yet two QB's could throw for 300 yards but the one that does it with 40 completions is more valuable than the one that does it with 20.
      Just wanted to get at this point specifically: we don't exactly give "free" points for attempts alone, because there's also an incompletion penalty. Unless you're really accurate (which really means that we don't want to punish you anyway) you rack up a larger and larger incompletions penalty as your number of attempts goes higher.

      Right now, though, it is true that even a 50% passer is rewarded a little bit just for having more attempts (even independent of the yardage he gets from said attempts.) That's not so good.
      "You're the biggest user of hindsight that I've ever known. Your favorite team, in any sport, is the one that just won. If you were a woman, you'd likely be a slut." - Slowwhand, to Imran

      Eschewing silly games since December 4, 2005

      Comment


      • Attempts should be nothing. It's completions that should count. Who gives a damn about a QB that throws 60 times in a game and completes 20?
        Life is not measured by the number of breaths you take, but by the moments that take your breath away.
        "Hating America is something best left to Mobius. He is an expert Yank hater.
        He also hates Texans and Australians, he does diversify." ~ Braindead

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Al B. Sure! View Post
          Jrabbit, you're doubly rewarding pass-first QB's. They have value just because they have more opportunity for yardage and TD's. To also get points for sheer completions is WIDENING the gap between pass-first and run-first QB's, beyond what it already is.
          There's actually a reason for this, Al. As I explained earlier. What we did was to widen the gap between QB and RBs. It's designed to make QB the most important position. Because it IS. These anomalies you've noticed are a byproduct of that. I don't deny they exist, but I maintain that they are just that -- anomalies. And we do tweak things from time to time. But the basic approach is sound, as indicated by its acceptance by the sports freaks here on Poly.

          Alby, you are always welcome in any league of mine. You're involved and committed, keep up with both the NFL and FF, and post constantly. But once you've signed on, dude, read the rules, draft accordingly, and realize that the same settings apply to everyone.

          If you need a traditional scoring Yds/TDs/INT setup for QB scoring to be happy, go ahead and start such a league. I might even play in it, just for the lulz. But don't think for a moment that you've built a convincing argument that the system we're using is so wrong. Because you haven't.
          Apolyton's Grim Reaper 2008, 2010 & 2011
          RIP lest we forget... SG (2) and LaFayette -- Civ2 Succession Games Brothers-in-Arms

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          • Looks like I jinxed poor Eli. If Rivers has a bad day tomorrow, I could be the first place team and be 8th in total score.
            "

            Comment


            • Shut up, EPW.
              Life is not measured by the number of breaths you take, but by the moments that take your breath away.
              "Hating America is something best left to Mobius. He is an expert Yank hater.
              He also hates Texans and Australians, he does diversify." ~ Braindead

              Comment


              • Specific changes I would like to implement next year:

                Change in the interception penalty - I'd like to hold a vote on -3, -4, or -5. I'll probably personally make a case for -5. That will cost an average QB about 2 points per game, but it would put a more significant dent in, say, Peyton's scoring from today.

                Change in the incompletion penalty - I'd like to change it to -.5. This will nerf high-attempt QBs some more. It will also cost the average QB about 2 points per game.

                Possibly increase the yardage bonus. Not as sure about this.
                "You're the biggest user of hindsight that I've ever known. Your favorite team, in any sport, is the one that just won. If you were a woman, you'd likely be a slut." - Slowwhand, to Imran

                Eschewing silly games since December 4, 2005

                Comment


                • Bearing in mind that not all incompletion's are a QB's fault, though neither are interceptions.
                  Life is not measured by the number of breaths you take, but by the moments that take your breath away.
                  "Hating America is something best left to Mobius. He is an expert Yank hater.
                  He also hates Texans and Australians, he does diversify." ~ Braindead

                  Comment


                  • Sloww -- "Fault" is a slippery slope. Best to focus on the big picture.

                    Jaguar -- In IDP, incomplete passes are already -0.5, and INTs are -3 pts. We also subtract 0.5 from the QB each time he's sacked. (Because we're progressive and open to new ideas.)

                    What are the settings in D/ST?
                    Apolyton's Grim Reaper 2008, 2010 & 2011
                    RIP lest we forget... SG (2) and LaFayette -- Civ2 Succession Games Brothers-in-Arms

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by SlowwHand View Post
                      Bearing in mind that not all incompletion's are a QB's fault, though neither are interceptions.
                      Eli manning is case in point in this. More than 2/3rds of his INTS are his receivers batting the ball up volleyball style.

                      I actually like the way scoring is now.
                      "I hope I get to punch you in the face one day" - MRT144, Imran Siddiqui
                      'I'm fairly certain that a ban on me punching you in the face is not a "right" worth respecting." - loinburger

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by -Jrabbit View Post
                        Sloww -- "Fault" is a slippery slope. Best to focus on the big picture.

                        Jaguar -- In IDP, incomplete passes are already -0.5, and INTs are -3 pts. We also subtract 0.5 from the QB each time he's sacked. (Because we're progressive and open to new ideas.)

                        What are the settings in D/ST?
                        Glad you asked. It should be noted that the settings are not identical.

                        D/ST: .05 points per passing yard.
                        IDP: .04 points per passing yard

                        D/ST: .5 points per completion, -.25 per incompletion
                        IDP: 1 point per completion, -.5 per incompletion

                        D/ST: -1 per sack
                        IDP: -.5 per sack

                        Ultimately they score pretty similarly most of the time. D/ST settings are a little bit closer to what Al B. wants.
                        "You're the biggest user of hindsight that I've ever known. Your favorite team, in any sport, is the one that just won. If you were a woman, you'd likely be a slut." - Slowwhand, to Imran

                        Eschewing silly games since December 4, 2005

                        Comment


                        • .04? What kind of anal setting is that?
                          Life is not measured by the number of breaths you take, but by the moments that take your breath away.
                          "Hating America is something best left to Mobius. He is an expert Yank hater.
                          He also hates Texans and Australians, he does diversify." ~ Braindead

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by MRT144 View Post
                            I actually like the way scoring is now.
                            Communist scum, clearly.
                            Apolyton's Grim Reaper 2008, 2010 & 2011
                            RIP lest we forget... SG (2) and LaFayette -- Civ2 Succession Games Brothers-in-Arms

                            Comment


                            • 1 per 25 yards. It makes more sense when you hear it that way.
                              "You're the biggest user of hindsight that I've ever known. Your favorite team, in any sport, is the one that just won. If you were a woman, you'd likely be a slut." - Slowwhand, to Imran

                              Eschewing silly games since December 4, 2005

                              Comment


                              • Oh, ok. Yeah it does.
                                Life is not measured by the number of breaths you take, but by the moments that take your breath away.
                                "Hating America is something best left to Mobius. He is an expert Yank hater.
                                He also hates Texans and Australians, he does diversify." ~ Braindead

                                Comment

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