Rugby - The Game They Play In Heaven II

[Havak]

BOD I would suspect is a vastly superior tactician to Warren. My elderly mother is after all.

Lets see the Lions have no specialist openside, a scrum half that constantly let himself be suckered into attacking half gaps and thereby turning over the pill, a stand off who is so far back he is still in Ireland and an outside centre absolutely identical to the inside centre. Plus a talented back three that won't see the ball because of the OC.

Comfortable Wallaby win, no doubt about it. Just a question of margin I think.

Fair to say Keith Wood does not approve:

"You could say he is picking on form, but he has picked an unbelievably direct team, with very little guile, specifically to play this game-plan.The Lions is about getting the best of quality out of the players of these islands, not having an intransigent game plan that is low on subtlety but simplistic from the start. I just feel it has been incredibly hard watching because we are not seeing that spark we are used to seeing from the Lions because it is trying to play a game-plan that I do not know suits a lot of the players. It suits the Welsh players, and that is why there are 10 of them playing. It is really, really frustrating."

What a shock - the Welsh coach picking Welsh players to play a Welsh game. One that constantly fails against SANZAR sides and the Wallabies in particular. True coaching genius?

[Havak]

I know it sounds like over reaction but it is really hard to convey the mood here - Gatland has fractured the fan base on national lines and that should never happen with the Lions.

I've spoken to friends of all the involved nationalities - the Scots and Irish I know are all furious, indeed one of my Irish friends who toured with me in 2001 kept quoting Willie-John about it "not being the Lions as he knows it". The Welsh are delighted and would have had at least two more taffs in the starting fifteen. The English are simply perplexed at why he would choose a side proven not to trouble the Wallabies in the slightest (i.e. Wales).

If the Lions lose - and I truly think they will - Gatland will probably become the man that finished the Lions.

Certainly Deans must be confident. Great player though George has been he hasn't played an international game in four years? The coach must be supremely confident that the job is done to take such a chance?

[kittenOFchaos]

If the Lions lose - and I truly think they will - Gatland will probably become the man that finished the Lions.

The concept of 'The Lions' is a great success commercially...that Gatland has chosen horrible tactics, teams and gone on to have lost at least two games won't end the concept. The concept was in a far greater hole following 2005 and was revived in 2009.

The Lions have played some horrible rugby that has allowed Australia, the Reds and the Brumbies to keep it so close. The approach chosen by the Lions has been extremely negative - it should be the Aussies making 100s of tackles, not us! Like everyone else I'm baffled by the decision to retain Davies and drop BOD.

[finbar]

Great player though George has been he hasn't played an international game in four years? The coach must be supremely confident that the job is done to take such a chance?

Not at all. I think it's a reaction to the absence of Warburton and a potential Lions weakness at the breakdown that Dingo wants to exploit. Neither Hooper nor Gill are as strong at the breakdown as George. If Pocock had been fit, George wouldn't have figured. He stepped back into Super rugby without batting an eye. The only question is his match fitness having missed games with a bung knee. He won't be expected to play the full 80 anyway.

The Lions have played some horrible rugby that has allowed Australia, the Reds and the Brumbies to keep it so close. The approach chosen by the Lions has been extremely negative - it should be the Aussies making 100s of tackles, not us! Like everyone else I'm baffled by the decision to retain Davies and drop BOD.

I think it was evident - and predictable - that Fatland always had his first choices set in stone. He only knows one way. That's the problem with Fatland. But, his choices aside, I also think the tour reflects a lack of depth of quality in various positions in Home Nations rugby.

[Havak]

In some positions yes - notably the 7, 10 and 12 shirts. But there is talent in the British isles. Lest we forget the Wallabies failed to beat NZ in 2012.

The concept of 'The Lions' is a great success commercially

For the Host Unions yes - they make a great deal of money - but the Lions themselves just about cover their own costs via sponsorship and end up turning a small profit due to merchandising. It sounds like you didn't realise the financials are massively skewed in favour of the host nation? We did reference it earlier in the thread.

That is why it is so frustrating that Gatland has played such a negative Welsh style and squad - it means the ARU will win both ON and OFF the pitch.

11 Welshman. 7 Englishmen. 4 Irishmen. 1 Scot. It's not the concept of the Lions - for me we musn't have foreign coaches for them ever again should the concept survive.

[kittenOFchaos]

My reaction was similar.

[finbar]

In some positions yes - notably the 7, 10 and 12 shirts. But there is talent in the British isles. Lest we forget the Wallabies failed to beat NZ in 2012.

I'd add the 1 and 9 shirts to that list. Not a lot of depth.

11 Welshman. 7 Englishmen. 4 Irishmen. 1 Scot. It's not the concept of the Lions - for me we musn't have foreign coaches for them ever again should the concept survive.

Or non-aligned coaches anyway. The thing is, Fatland's squad choices and team selections were always going to be predictable. Whoever appointed him would have known that. That was where the problem started.

[kittenOFchaos]

Go Lions...

I'm feeling Lions by 8

[kittenOFchaos]

They'd have won by more if O'Driscoll had played

Likewise, Phillips wasn't up to it.

A great victory, but my frustration all along was knowing that this was the sort of result that we should have been able to expect against Australia. Deans is punished for not selecting Quade...the series may have been done and dusted by this stage had he played.

[Havak]

Turns out Fatland is a genius after all. Despite the fact Phillips was as poor as ever and Roberts utterly anonymous until his try. However in terms of the work he put in Davies justified his selection I have to say. Naturally the English and irish players made the difference.

They utterly overpowered the Wallabies really and it ended up a real drubbing. Poite was more aware at the scrum than his SH colleagues and pinged the Wallabies for early driving with the yellow card - with that weapon out of their locker the mismatch in scrummaging ability became very stark. And perhaps George didn't do the same job as Hooper after all?

Small wobble around half time where Sexton started kicking ball away again.

[finbar]

I think George did better than Hooper would have against that Lions back row. Fatland finally got the balance right. Or at least as close as he could. Hooper's problem at 7 is that he's underpowered relative to George and, certainly, Pocock. Hooper would have been brushed aside. It's always going to be his problem as a 7. His big asset is his energy and ball carrying, in particular. Not a 7's first priorities. Trouble is, he's not being enough for a 6. Given that George probably shouldn't have come back on anyway after that massive head knock, he was far from the worst player.

I don't know about Fatland genius. He had (a fit) Corbisiero and Jones propping together for the first time - not many front rows in the world would hold them out - and it took him three Tests to work out his best back row. And someone finally whispered in Halfpenny's ear that he's allowed to run with the ball. The woeful Wallaby kicking game - straight down his throat how many times? - only aided his cause.

I think that's probably it for Dingo. He could step down. Link McKenzie could be next in line, though now there is talk of Jake White to the Wallabies and Link to the Melbourne Rebels who are now no longer privately owned. The owners handed in their licence. The Victorian Rugby Union will now run the Rebels show.

[Havak]

I used the icon in place of a sarcasm one. I don't think he is a genius - I think he got very lucky. And his welsh heavy selection still leaves a bad taste in my mouth despite the English contigent being second largest on the day. I'm jingoistic at times but it has limits and I felt for the Scots in particular. God know what scots themselves think with his dismissive attitude towards them - rumour was he didn't want to take any and with, what, about 25 mins game time in total for Scots in the three tests there would seem to be some substance to that.

I was also sad to see large sections of the Australian crowd bailing early - for me it is symptomatic of the way many of your countrymen don't "get" Union. Win or lose you stay abnd back your men - "go you good men go" as they say". The Walalbies didn't deserve the disrespect of people walking out. It was a gift for the sea of red of course who were merciless with the traditonal serenade "we can see you leaving". That particular song is borrowed from kissball and i'm not a huge fan of it myself - but I suppose they had earnt the right to enjoy themselves.

I was talking to someone who came home after the second test (poor soul!) and with the mining boom and the relative low impact of the international banking crisis Australia is a veyr expensive place to visit compared to my trip 12 years ago. They spent almost three times what I did for a shorter trip. The smiley is appropriate again.

[Havak]

I used the icon in place of a sarcasm one. I don't think he is a genius - I think he got very lucky. And his welsh heavy selection still leaves a bad taste in my mouth despite the English contigent being second largest on the day. I'm jingoistic at times but it has limits and I felt for the Scots in particular. God know what scots themselves think with his dismissive attitude towards them - rumour was he didn't want to take any and with, what, about 25 mins game time in total for Scots in the three tests there would seem to be some substance to that.

I was also sad to see large sections of the Australian crowd bailing early - for me it is symptomatic of the way many of your countrymen don't "get" Union. Win or lose you stay and back your men - "go you good men go" as they say". The Wallabies didn't deserve the disrespect of people walking out. It was a gift for the sea of red of course who were merciless with the traditonal serenade "we can see you leaving". That particular song is borrowed from kissball and I'm not a huge fan of it myself - but I suppose they had earnt the right to enjoy themselves.

I was talking to someone who came home after the second test (poor soul!) and with the mining boom and the relative low impact of the international banking crisis Australia is a very expensive place to visit compared to my trip 12 years ago. They spent almost three times what I did for a shorter trip. The smiley is appropriate again.

[finbar]

I know a couple of Brits who are doing/have done the Lions tour. Boggled by the prices in Oz, Sydney in particular. I've noticed it on my couple of trips back. Doubt we could afford to live there anymore. We lived in - and still have the house - a very expensive part of Sydney, particularly for food shopping. Here, for food, we're still paying less than half what we paid in Sydney 8 years ago.

[Havak]

That is quite staggering.

You were right about Dingo - the knives are definitely out. I don't buy the "Cooper would have won it" argument myself - he is as likely to have lost it with a howler or three - but the selection of O'Bieber does seem to be the hammer the Aussie media is hitting Deans with?

It is of course an over-reaction. A far better scrum performance and the superior balance in the loose forwards gave the Lions a great platform and they managed to use it. Such things happen.

Although the ANZ stadium does seem to be becoming a real problem for them - excepting the fact they beat Wales there their recent record otherwise is appalling?